I don't hate gods

[Koss_Tea]

It seems like it's super trendy nowadays to diss the deities. Even non-evil gods often portrayed as a-holes and trash-talking them is heavily encouraged by devs and communities. Mystra and Lathander is just one of those examples. There is Iomedae and Shelyn in Pathfinder. Gods in Pillars of Eternity are portrayed as arrogant upstarts, treating mortals like playthings

Altho it's fun to enjoy the role of CG/CN rebel following "no gods no masters" trope, I still think this trend is getting a bit old. "bad saint" anti-clice became a clice.

And I actually like gods. Their stylistics, personalities, lore and other aspects are immersive af. Worshipping them is a powerful roleplaying instrument that can inspire you into a lot of things. And it's really awesome to weild holy magic and supporting powers. But most of all, the idea of having a mighty patron at your side is badass, and deities are the mightiest of them all. God gives you powers to achieve the common goal, merely asking your loyalty in return. A fair trade

it's a bit bothering how oftentimes narration violates the integrity of deities character image, making them commit hypocritical actions or just acting like douchebags. When writers do this, they basically purpously ruin and spoil the beauty of religion in cRPG games. And it happens just too many times. I think we should reduce the amount of "divines are bad" stories, they are getting overused alot

Just a bit of confession :)

[countgrey]

For the record, in the Forgotten Realms setting, many of the deities were once mortals. Heck, the two "original" deities of the FR setting (Shar and Selune) have eons of grudges against each other due to how much they act like feuding teens. Just dig a little deeper and you'll see that from the very start the FR deities regularly "violate the integrity of their character image" all by themselves, and have done so from the very start of the FR lore.

It's also worth mentioning that some deities very explicitly ask their followers to question themselves, their faith, etc, because at the end of that path the follower A) realizes how much they truly align with that deity's teachings and thus become much more faithful or B) realize that they should be following a different deity instead, thus removing themselves as a source of weak faith from the ranks of that deity's faithful.

With those points in mind, it's pretty clear that you're making some incorrect assumptions about how the deities in the Forgotten Realms setting behave. The FR deities behave like the classical Greek pantheon: they're full of their own personal motivations and will often do things that harm their public image as they pursue their goals.

[Koss_Tea]

Originally posted by countgrey:

For the record, in the Forgotten Realms setting, many of the deities were once mortals. Heck, the two "original" deities of the FR setting (Shar and Selune) have eons of grudges against each other due to how much they act like feuding teens. Just dig a little deeper and you'll see that from the very start the FR deities regularly "violate the integrity of their character image" all by themselves, and have done so from the very start of the FR lore.

It's also worth mentioning that some deities very explicitly ask their followers to question themselves, their faith, etc, because at the end of that path the follower A) realizes how much they truly align with that deity's teachings and thus become much more faithful or B) realize that they should be following a different deity instead, thus removing themselves as a source of weak faith from the ranks of that deity's faithful.

With those points in mind, it's pretty clear that you're making some incorrect assumptions about how the deities in the Forgotten Realms setting behave. The FR deities behave like the classical Greek pantheon: they're full of their own personal motivations and will often do things that harm their public image as they pursue their goals.

So you're saying so called Good Gods never were truly righteouus? And meant to be hypocrites?

EDIT: Lemme re-phrase that. Why FR writers do this in the first place? Why not portray good gods as.... Well, actual heroes?

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by ваша ипотека:

Why not portray good gods as.... Well, actually good guys and gals?

It's quite traditional for gods in pantheons to be petty and conflicted with each other. They hold grudges. They play jokes. They fight. They fall in love. The have unrequited lusts. They sometimes kill each other. They reflect human society.

Just no like people are perfectly good, in most traditional pantheons no gods are perfectly good.

[Koss_Tea]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Originally posted by ваша ипотека:

Why not portray good gods as.... Well, actually good guys and gals?

It's quite traditional for gods in pantheons to be petty and conflicted with each other. They hold grudges. They play jokes. They fight. They fall in love. The have unrequited lusts. They sometimes kill each other. They reflect human society.

Just no like people are perfectly good, in most traditional pantheons no gods are perfectly good.

Still, it's pretty weird how people hate fictional gods with a passion, as if they're actual irl politicians or celebrities. They even make half-lies, like critisizing morally questionable actions that were removed from storyline long ago, and admitted as writer's mistake.

All those angry posts on Reddit and stuff

[Inquisitor Firebrand]

remember that time lathander tried to reshape the patheon in his own image or AO cast all the gods out of heaven over some stolen library books? or the time mystra died for like the third time?

[Alpaca]

Its why the pantheons in this game are so compelling. To have a flawed god introduces the potential for a lot of great storytelling. Hell it can be seen in real life with pop culture leaning on greek and norse mythologies (whose gods/demigods/mythical creatures are heavily flawed) for their storytelling. If people hate these characters with a passion its because they are so well written. Plus there's a virtue in the human desire to continue to grow and not accept conventional limits. Its why you have a pc today.

[Koss_Tea]

Originally posted by Alpaca:

Its why the pantheons in this game are so compelling. To have a flawed god introduces the potential for a lot of great storytelling. Hell it can be seen in real life with pop culture leaning on greek and norse mythologies (whose gods/demigods/mythical creatures are heavily flawed) for their storytelling. If people hate these characters with a passion its because they are so well written. Plus there's a virtue in the human desire to continue to grow and not accept conventional limits. Its why you have a pc today.

Well, having flaws and having completly faked righteousness is not the same. You can have flaws and be hero still. But it looks like devs and fandoms don't want good gods to be actual heroes, for some reason LOL

[seeker1]

I admit being fascinated by settings where the gods are ... problematized.

Thedas aka the Dragon Age setting ... well, they've pretty much revealed the elven gods weren't gods, just powerful mages ... and the existence of the Maker remains a question mark (maybe always will) but there have been hints throughout the series that the Chantry may not be telling the whole truth about the Black City, the Blights, or Andraste.

The Eora setting ... used in PoE1-2 and Avowed ... well, it's not so much the gods don't exist, so much as they aren't what people think they are. They're more like kind of "gigantic soul clusters" that feed off belief and souls to maintain their existence, than actual gods as we would think of it.

D & D/FR is one of many fantasy settings where the existence of gods is a given. After all, many people have actually met them. By the end of BG3, Tav may have actually "met" Shar, Bhaal, Myrkul's avatar, Mystra, Vlaakith (though "she's not really") ... the weird thing is there are no atheists in FR, it seems hard for anybody to say they don't exist at all, though there are people who refuse to serve a god ... and unfortunately, worry about going to Limbo as a result. In the D & D system, as a cleric, it's literally your god who gives your spells to you by praying to them, plus also grants you all your channel divinity powers and divine intervention. Clerics have no powers without the gods (just as warlocks have no powers without their patrons). So clerics who anger their gods may need atonement or they lose their power.

Yeah, I agree, in the many editions of the games, the gods have been retconned over and over. But it does remind me of the Greek and other Earth mythological pantheons - all the feuding and confflicts between the gods often help drive the narrative of things going on in campaigns, and for sure are driving what's happening in BG3. IMHO: that Kelemvor is pissed at what the Dead Three are doing is exactly why Withers/Jergal is helping us.

[Cascomp2]

Originally posted by seeker1:

D & D/FR is one of many fantasy settings where the existence of gods is a given. After all, many people have actually met them. By the end of BG3, Tav may have actually "met" Shar, Bhaal, Myrkul's avatar, Mystra, Vlaakith (though "she's not really") ... the weird thing is there are no atheists in FR, it seems hard for anybody to say they don't exist at all, though there are people who refuse to serve a god ... and unfortunately, worry about going to Limbo as a result.

Atheists and just plain non-religious people exist in FR, but they are written as evil and end up in the Wall of the Faithless, a fate considered worse than the Hells. Limbo would be far better. "Worship the gods OR ELSE" is built into the setting.

As for the existence of gods in the setting they aren't just known to exist, but have a defined nature. Just being powerful isn't enough to qualify. "Controlling vast amounts of arcane power does not make one a god" to paraphrase a line from the Solar at the end of BGII.

[Koss_Tea]

in DnD Atheism has totally different meaning. It means "non-worshipper" but it's too mouthful, so people just use term "atheist"

[Cascomp2]

Originally posted by ваша ипотека:

in DnD Atheism has totally different meaning. It means "non-worshipper" but it's too mouthful, so people just use term "atheist"

Also, you won't find many literal atheists in a setting where gods are verifiably real. Antitheists, apatheists and so on yes, atheists no; it's kind of like not believing in polar bears in real life. I've never personally seen one but I'm not going to postulate a worldwide conspiracy to fake their existence.

But "atheist" is the more familiar term so it gets used.

[woops]

it's an interesting point but I think the lore in this universe is such that in BG3 the gods are most often merely strong NPCs and were even mortals at some point. So it's understandable that they seem full of flaws and problems.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by Cascomp2:

Atheists and just plain non-religious people exist in FR, but they are written as evil and end up in the Wall of the Faithless, a fate considered worse than the Hells. Limbo would be far better. "Worship the gods OR ELSE" is built into the setting.

I don't think they're actually flagged as evil. Doesn't matter much since their souls cease to exist soon enough anyway.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Thedas aka the Dragon Age setting ... well, they've pretty much revealed the elven gods weren't gods, just powerful mages ... and the existence of the Maker remains a question mark (maybe always will) but there have been hints throughout the series that the Chantry may not be telling the whole truth about the Black City, the Blights, or Andraste.

Veilguard makes it pretty explicit that the Chantry was completely wrong about the Blights and the Black City. Andraste is still a bit ambiguous.

[wtiger27]

Depends on the GOD. :p I find it very satisfying to spit in the face of Baal and tell him you are not serving him any more.