Beginner Bard type questions

[Giant Wasp Face]

'ello. I'm very, VERY early into the game and I've just discovered a certain NPC and the ability to "reroll" my characters stats and other things. So I was wondering, are the default stats good enough to get through the game?

After fiddling about with the character generator, I've noticed that only even stats give skill multipliers, so I'm wondering if the stat spread could be optimised a bit since CHA is at 17 and 16 seems to confer the same bonuses while freeing up additonaL Stats. I wanted the character to be a support caster, and I LOVE solving problems and issues with skill checks but I don't want to gimp my character. Or am i thinking about this too much? Should I just go with the default stats?

Also, which skills and cantrips are useful? I went with mockery and illusion, since luring monsters near explodey things is always useful. Thanks.

[FunkyMonkey]

Sounds like you have a good idea about the game and your character so I wouldn't worry about the stats too much. They are decent enough to finish the game. Also, you have access to that respec through your whole game as many times as you want so I wouldn't worry about that either.

Bards get a feat or ability score increase at levels 4, 8 and 12. Some feats give you +1 in Charisma so you can raise 17 to 18 that way. Ability score increases give you +2 in one stat or +1 in two stats so you can even two stats that way if you want.

For support and utility oriented Bards I'd recommend taking things like Healing word, Longstrider, Invisibility and Enhance ability. For cantrips Vicious mockery is a must, Minor illusion is good and after those I'd consider Mage hand and Light. Light is especially useful in Act 2, without spoiling too much.

[Balekai]

First note that even numbers of Ability Scores add bonuses. For example to get extra bonuses from say CHA you need to hit 18, 20, 22, 24 etc etc.

One thing I do with my main "face" characters like Bards, Warlocks, or Bard/Warlocks, is start with 17 CHA and take Actor feat, adding +1 CHA + Proficiency in Deception/Performance (if you don't already have), which the feat also doubles those proficiency into Expertise essentially too.

Taking that Feat can easily make your character a master of charisma skills and allow you to ignore putting proficiency/expertise towards those skills and place your proficiency/expertise point(s) in say Stealth so you have a way to sneak into certain positions.

Stealth is also useful for when you use Friends/Charm (Advantage on Charisma Checks) in dialogue on NPCs in Tactician mode. So after you finish conversations (VERY quickly in these cases lol), you can run and hide from an NPC before they get angry from you charming them (in which case if they can't find you, they don't blame you like getting away with stealing). Due to that Thaumaturgy (Advantage on Intimidation and Performance Checks.) and Guidance (+1-4 dice bonus to ability checks) are the best dialogue modifier spells in dialogue since they don't provoke hostility when they end (since they target you not the NPC).

Anyways after Actor you can take +2 ability score increase for CHA to hit 20 CHA cap from feats + initial 17 CHA.

That will leave you one other feat to pick something like Alert (You gain +5 to Initiative and can no longer be surprised.) if you go full Bard or Bard 8 + Warlock 4 or whatever. Alert is good if your Bard or caster is a mass controller support, that wants to get the jump early in combat to shut down enemies with Mass Crowd Control. If you successful mass hold person or Hypnotic Gaze the enemy then it's like your whole party getting the first turn(s) in combat.

Not required of course and there's a lot of things you can do like just multiclass and forget either the +2 CHA increase or ignore Alert/3rd feat.


Lastly on Ability Score over the course of the game pick up special items and make certain decisions that permanently increase CHA over the 20 cap. Ethel's hair and Necromancy of Thay related increases etc.).



An interesting (I think) super utility character is Bardlock (Warlock + Bard).

One of my favourite "thematic" RP Tavs is Draconic Sorcerer 1 (Gold Dragon and headcanon the power is from a super Pseudo Dragon like Fey entity lol) + Archfey Warlock + College of Lore Bard (Going to try Glamour College version with Patch 8 for more thematic mashup, but less skill proficiency/expertise that way).

The basic Idea is that by level 3-5 you basically have the most useful cantrips in the game, and almost if not all ritual spells (unlimited use outside of combat) so you can Leap, Feather Fall, Speak to Animals etc. very early on at will. You also gain Darkness + Devil's Sight cheese with Warlock levels + powerful EB blasting. Bard's Song of Rest (extra short rest per day), and Warlock's spell slot recharge on short rests gives you tons of spells per day. Not to mention all spells from other arcane
CHA classes can be cast from Warlock slots from the same level or upcasted to warlock slot levels.

It looks something like this early on:


Half-Drow (Militia Training, Darkvision, some neat Drow/Half-Drow dialogue, Fey Ancestry, Dancing Lights Cantrip + Faerie Fire and Darkness as once per long rest abilities). Noble Background. Intimidation + Persuasion Proficiency. 14 Dex/CON, 17 CHA.

Level 1: Draconic Sorcerer Gold Dragon (Taking at first level gives Proficiency in Constitution checks etc., though you may want it in DEX via 1st level Bard or Warlock for initiative but losing concentrations is messier and worse imo lol). Passive Dragon skin that acts like Mage Armour (When not wearing armour AC is set to 13). You get Disguise Self Ritual for free with unlimited uses (not needed in game but fun and thematic). Pick up Shocking Grasp, Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost (all for utility vs. some puzzles, enemies etc.), Light (important for reverb/radiant orb combo set item builds). Enhanced Leap and Feather Fall for spells.

Level 2: Bard. Spells - Heroism, Healing Word, Speak with Animals. Then Faerie Fire, Longstrider, Dissonant Whispers OR Charm (last one if playing Glamour Bard so you have tons of Charm play with Warlock slots + Song of Rest). Cantrips - Vicious Mockery (nice to have early, but you can swap out if you plan to take Warlock Pact of the Tome which grants Vicious Mocker+ Guidance + Thorn Whip cantrips), Friends (if you don't plan on using this swap out for Minor Illusion and if switching both, Minor Illusion + Mage Hand in that order). Add Stealth to your proficiency (at level 3 Bard then pick up expertise in this later).

Level 3: Warlock. Cantrips - Eldritch Blast (of course), Minor Illusion (if you don't have this is very useful for baiting enemies and splitting them up. Or putting them in position to be knocked off cliffs). Spells - Faerie Fire, Hex, Armour of Agathys, Sleep whatever floats your boat.

Level 4: Warlock. Spell - Whatever. Eldritch Invocations - Agonizing Blast (CHA modifier to EB damage), Devil's Sight (Ignore Magical Darkness, allowing you to attack from and into Darkness while enemies can't find you). At level 5 Warlock you could pick up One with Shadows to so you can go invisibility in obscured areas, allowing easier escape from using Friends in dialogue. Or for say the new Galmour Bard using Mantle of Majesty bonus actions, safely going into One with Shadows in the same turn with normal action. Pact of the Tome at level 5 Warlock too for again Guidance access or Pact of the Chain for Imp pet, which can go invisible, fly and has Devil's sight as well (for Darkness cheese).

Repelling Blast is also a good Warlock level 5 Invocation or even at Warlock level 2, because you can use it + Minor illusion to knock people off cliffs/high places to cheese fights without starting battle. :p :P


Then based on your Bard College build up from there. Whether:

- Lore (1 Sorc, 7 Warlock, 4 Bard). Controller, skill/utility monkey and EB blaster from Darkness, or with Blink (which is now fixed I think), and/or from Greater Invis with our medium high stealth making Greater Invis play somewhat doable.

or

- Glamour (1 Sorc, 5 Warlock, 6 Bard for theme, proactive temp hp/counter charms from Mantle of Inspirations when party members are hit in melee, short rest inspirations and so you get access Mantle of Majesty for bonus action Command CC for 10 rounds a day that auto succeeds vs. Charmed targets.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by Balekai:

Lastly on Ability Score over the course of the game pick up special items and make certain decisions that permanently increase CHA over the 20 cap. Ethel's hair and Necromancy of Thay related increases etc.).

Note that one of those requires getting some NPCs killed. RP-wise you might not want it. A +1 bonus is actually kind of annoying IMHO, since it's only useful if you're metagaming. Two +1s are another matter, of course.

As long as we're talking multiclassing, I'll put in a word for Bardadins. Two paladin levels will give you access to Divine Smites, which you'll actually do better than a single-class Paladin; Paladins are half-casters and bards are full casters, and more spell slots equals more Smites. The last two bard levels are kind of meh anyway. This works best with Swords or Valour bards, who gain an extra attack at bard level 6. OF the two, I think Swords is far superior.

Concerning Longstrider, I underestimated this spell for a long time. Additional movement isn't a great tradeoff for one spell slot, but Longstrider is a Ritual spell, and doesn't cost any slots as long as you cast it out of combat. Feather Fall and Enhance Leap also work that way, but there are potions and items for those, so I wouldn't waste a bard known spell on them.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by alanc9:

Originally posted by Balekai:

Lastly on Ability Score over the course of the game pick up special items and make certain decisions that permanently increase CHA over the 20 cap. Ethel's hair and Necromancy of Thay related increases etc.).

Note that one of those requires getting some NPCs killed. RP-wise you might not want it. A +1 bonus is actually kind of annoying IMHO, since it's only useful if you're metagaming. Two +1s are another matter, of course.

On the hair unless it has been fixed You can get hair and save Mayrina of course, but you can also cheese it so that you get the deal and kill Ethel at the same time. You have to have someone in stealth turn-based outside fight and switch to them and one shot her before she disappear/teleport. Auntie will still be alive in Act 3, her thralls will be alive (but half drow goes crazy still I think).

[alanc9]

Good point. I'm not a huge fan of semi-exploits like that, so I tend to forget they exist.

"Semi" because you actually might be pull that one off in-universe, thanks to tadpole communication.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by alanc9:

Good point. I'm not a huge fan of semi-exploits like that, so I tend to forget they exist.

"Semi" because you actually might be pull that one off in-universe, thanks to tadpole communication.

Yeah that was my thinking. Like in a movie where one protagonist makes a deal and another out of the blue, comes out of no where to finish off the baddie. Resulting in Auntie Ethel *dying* and being resurrected as she portals (but you kept your promise so not angry at your character, personally), and/or was distracted enough from the "last blow" (a sneak attack stealth shot from Asterion for me) + teleport that her spell broke over the Thralls saving everyone.

Edit:

I also cheese Maryrina's Brother part by taking certain dialogue (can't remember, but I think its the path that sees them run into Swamp), then as they're running towards swamp you attack them before they reach it. If you knock them out now you will get pre-full release dialogue in Ethel's Hut with Mayrina + Ethel. As in, Ethel will not have killed them and they truly return to the Farm and Mayrina doesn't go nuts with despair because her brothers were killed. No negative effects on the game, but attacking too late or something can break brother AI and one becomes invulnerable. lol

[DominoPivot]

The Ability Score system is a bit complicated for historical reason, but you are correct in your assessment that odd numbers don't matter much. But since you have the opportunity to bump one or two ability scores at levels 4, 8 and 12, it's not too big a deal if you have one or two odd numbers at level 1.

Bard is an especially flexible class, with many viable distributions of ability scores. You could make a strength-based, heavily armored Valor bard that only casts buffs that don't require a dice roll; STR and CON might be more important to you than CHA. Or you could be a big-mouthed Swords bard, who relies on DEX first and CHA second. Or you might be a spellcaster first and foremost, and want to max out CHA.

Problems mostly arise when your character is too spread out, and doesn't have a reliable attack they can use without spell slots. Look at Shadowheart: her low STR and DEX make her bad with weapons, but she starts with the cantrips Sacred Flame (which most enemies can dodge with a DEX save) and Fire Bolt (which uses her INT modifier because it's a racial feature). It makes her seem pretty incompetent in the early game, with most of her attacks missing.

[captain403]

I find mainstat at 17 during creation is too expensive. Drop it to 16 gets you several points that can be used elsewhere. There is enough items and asi's to get mainstat to where you want it.

[Balekai]

Originally posted by captain403:

I find mainstat at 17 during creation is too expensive. Drop it to 16 gets you several points that can be used elsewhere. There is enough items and asi's to get mainstat to where you want it.

True in many cases especially for more melee builds, but if you play EB blaster Bardlock for example (or pick up EB during full Bard progression), you only need CHA as main stat as it defines all/most of your main class abilities including hit chance and damage for Eldritch Blast. A very SAD (Single Ability (score) Dependent) build path which is good vs. more MAD builds (Multiple Ability (score) Dependent). Agonising Eldritch Blast + Potent Robe will thank you by getting like 6 more base damage per EB use (3 beams late level for shotgun effect) with just 1 extra CHA Bonus end game.

Like I said you might as well cap your CHA at 20 and keep pumping it up with other sources to 24 or whatever. 14 Dex/Con+2 proficiency for concentrations is enough (especially if your main defensive layer is stuff like Darkness + Crowd Control). All other stats can even be dump stats if you want.

Then as mentioned above equip tons of Reverberation Gear + some Radiant Orb gear and the Callous Glow Ring for divine damage on EBs. Specifically these items being the most important:

Spineshudder Amulet
Boots of Stormy Clamour
Gloves of Belligerent Skies
Callous Glow Ring
Coruscation Ring
*As a side note I do want to try Reverb gear with the Ring of Spiteful Thunder + Level 5 Booming Blade cantrip on a Gish build for dazes lol*

Anyways that's tons of damage and massive condition debuffing to make up for Bard's lack of damaging potential as a spell caster, while also keeping focused on one ability score. I think the Prone from Reverberation can also make enemies skip turns unlike other sources. So you're still fulfilling your CC role while EBing. :)

[captain403]

Originally posted by Balekai:

Originally posted by captain403:

I find mainstat at 17 during creation is too expensive. Drop it to 16 gets you several points that can be used elsewhere. There is enough items and asi's to get mainstat to where you want it.

True in many cases especially for more melee builds, but if you play EB blaster Bardlock for example (or pick up EB during full Bard progression), you only need CHA as main stat as it defines all/most of your main class abilities including hit chance and damage for Eldritch Blast. A very SAD (Single Ability (score) Dependent) build path which is good vs. more MAD builds (Multiple Ability (score) Dependent). Agonising Eldritch Blast + Potent Robe will thank you by getting like 6 more base damage per EB use (3 beams late level for shotgun effect) with just 1 extra CHA Bonus end game.

Like I said you might as well cap your CHA at 20 and keep pumping it up with other sources to 24 or whatever. 14 Dex/Con+2 proficiency for concentrations is enough (especially if your main defensive layer is stuff like Darkness + Crowd Control). All other stats can even be dump stats if you want.

Then as mentioned above equip tons of Reverberation Gear + some Radiant Orb gear and the Callous Glow Ring for divine damage on EBs. Specifically these items being the most important:

Spineshudder Amulet
Boots of Stormy Clamour
Gloves of Belligerent Skies
Callous Glow Ring
Coruscation Ring
*As a side note I do want to try Reverb gear with the Ring of Spiteful Thunder + Level 5 Booming Blade cantrip on a Gish build for dazes lol*

Anyways that's tons of damage and massive condition debuffing to make up for Bard's lack of damaging potential as a spell caster, while also keeping focused on one ability score. I think the Prone from Reverberation can also make enemies skip turns unlike other sources. So you're still fulfilling your CC role while EBing. :)

Even a blaster bardlock can use the extra points at start by not setting mainstat to 17. Boost con for saves and hp, or dex for AC and initiative or even wisdom just for saves. Any of these are better than 1 extra cha.

17 gains you nothing that 16 does, and a 16 can be 18 by level 4 (or 5 depending on quest sequence), and 20 by level 8. Of course, multi-class can complicate things.

[jonnin]

most of the time you go even stats and increase it by 2 with a +2 feat. There are some +1 feats worth having (none of them for charisma, IMHO), and if you instead plan on one of those, you can go 17. Also there are some other ways to get stat increases, and if you plan around those, 17 can also make sense. My bard is 16 dex 16 cha at creation and I fill in as the party cleric, partial nuker, and combatant (bows & melee).

Respec is cheap and you can even steal the money back without any risk. Keep playing with it until it feels right to you.

Stat advice ... just be aware that you can easily have an 16+ in nearly every stat by the end of act 1 using items. This overrides a lot of thinking about it if you just want a godly tav.

19 str from a club
18 dex gloves
int, 17 hat
so that leaves you with those stats at 8 at creation and the other 3 split with all your creation stat points. And +1 from a buff item (permanent).

[Balekai]

Originally posted by captain403:

Originally posted by Balekai:

/snip

Even a blaster bardlock can use the extra points at start by not setting mainstat to 17. Boost con for saves and hp, or dex for AC and initiative or even wisdom just for saves. Any of these are better than 1 extra cha.

17 gains you nothing that 16 does, and a 16 can be 18 by level 4 (or 5 depending on quest sequence), and 20 by level 8. Of course, multi-class can complicate things.

Yep but like i said above it's a personal choice especially if you're trying to be a utility/face bard.

Going to 17 allows one to get to 20 CHA with one ASI + one feat that adds CHA. So if you have two feats/ASI (multiclassing) you can take say Actor for +1 CHA, which also gives proficiency/expertise in Deception and Performance. This allows your Bard to become even a better face/skill monkey by being able to move around more proficiency/expertise points. Especially if you go College of Lore.

The OP stated he likes the support role + solving problems with skills so far. So I gave him a means to do that and maximize both on his main Bard character, while also getting some damage and even more utility potential with some multiclassing. :)

To use Bardlock again with EBs from Darkness with the above gear, you should have enough "going on" that AC is mostly a tertiary defensive stat in your layered defences:

- Potent Robe restoring Temp Health every turn based on Charisma modifier.

- Most enemies can't see you anyways in the Darkness and have to close in including Ranged.

- You have spells like Hypnotic Gaze, Hunger of Hadar also locking down enemies.

- Reverberation stacks cycling and debuffing hit enemies with" -1 penalty to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution Saving throws per remaining turn. When the entity has 5 or more turns of Reverberation, it takes 1d4 Thunder damage and must succeed a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or fall Prone. The condition is removed afterward."

You can easily cycle through and maintain thunder damage procs + 2-4 stacks of reverb debuff. Daze can also be triggered here with this setup with someone doing thunder damage to proc Ring of Spiteful Thunder, for "Disadvantage on Wisdom Saving throws, can't take Reactions, and loses the Dexterity bonus to their Armour Class Armour Class." It's against a CON check which you have already debuffed with Reverberation most of the time.

- Radiating Orb stacks for "Affected entity has -1 to Attack Rolls per remaining turn. It also sheds bright light in an area surrounding it." This + Darkness blindness means enemies really won't be hitting you reducing the chance of breaking Concentration.

That's unless they AoE in your vicinity which is where CON save comes in for not breaking concentrations. Which is why I like Sorc for 1st level for more utility, 13 base AC instead of 10 (without cheesing Mage Armour from hirelings at camp or Gale! :p :P ), and +2 CON saves from proficiency.



Only ambushes or bad initiative rolls are a problem with Sorcerer 1st level due to losing Dex Proficiency. Still most fights you can be proactive with Darkness + Sneaking etc. to cause surprise and make initiative redundant.

[captain403]

Originally posted by jonnin:

There are some +1 feats worth having (none of them for charisma, IMHO).

Party face will find actor a very good feat.

[Mander]

Welcome to the fellowship of harp and blade my friend.
So, regarding your questions: initial stat distribution is somewhat “optimized” for a standard run (I’m assuming you’re playing on normal difficulty).
Keeping in mind that only even numbers add to your modifiers (i.e. 17 charisma and 16 charisma gives you the same modifiers to checks), it is possible to take the “cookie cutter” version and run with it.
OR, if you’re heavy into min-max, and know what you’re doing, completely disregard it and aim to build… a different kind of bard. One that can ravage minds with a flute and bodies with a sword.
Note (ehe!) that these kinds of builds take full advantage of the loot you can find and rewards from quests to achieve max damage.
For example, here below the bard that won me Honor mode (spoiler, ofc):


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3456052016


As a general rule of thumb anyway, intelligence for a bard is kinda of a dump stat: it is possible to find early enough in the ACT 1, a crown that brings your intelligence to 17, and that basically everyone, bar wizards, should use.
Regarding what works and what doesn’t, it is mainly a matter of preference: in my case, thunderwave (for cc early in the game), dissonant whispers and heat metal are what hard carried me together with hold person/hold monster (and general crowd control like fear, confusion, hypnotic pattern), until level 10 (level 12 is cap). At that point, being mine a college of valor bard, I finally had access to “magical secret”, adding thunderous smite on my bard.
And let me tell you: Hold person/monster + thunderous smite + any potion that add on your strength grants you a frickton of damage.

[jonnin]

Originally posted by captain403:

Originally posted by jonnin:

There are some +1 feats worth having (none of them for charisma, IMHO).

Party face will find actor a very good feat.

Fair. I felt it was overkill, and skipped it, but you could go there for sure.

Speaking of which... cantrips, I picked up friends. Mockery feels like a trap but nothing better stands out other than illusion for barrelmancy. But, I do not pick up actor, so my first feat is gonna be warlock magic secrets, grabbing EB & hex.

cloud of daggers is a must have for me, and glyph of warding at 3 will be too. Past that you pick the spells based on what your goal and role is. The only other must have is that I want conjure elemental from magical secrets -- they are a big help in act 3 and your other level 6 spells (you will upcast it) are situational at best.

the extra short rest is one of your best abilities. Use it wisely.