I wish all party members were always present for dialogue.

[Intern Waffle]

The first run of the game, I did the gauntlet of Shar, foolishly thinking my party was smart enough to communicate with each other, and that there was no way Shadowheart was LITERALLY sitting at camp waiting around for us to finish. Then you finish it and she leaves the frickin' party. Because you "Did it without her". Nevermind that I long rested multiple times and checked each and every time to see if she had anything to say about the day's events.

(Please note that until this point, EVERY MAJOR EVENT IN THE GAME would have party member reactions at camp, REGARDLESS of whether they were in the party- but for this one, because she's not in the party, she arbitrarily doesn't count as participating. It's not consistent!)

Why, after DECADES of RPGs having party members outside the active party still present and accounted for in everything you do, do games like in *this* genre refuse to do that?

Is it supposed to be fun? To not know which conversations (ignore the shar gauntlet thing, im talking in general) you might want someone around for? To have to uproot your playstyle to get the right person in there just in case someone needs to talk to them? To be FORCED to have Wyll in your party to get the most out of Waukeen's Rest, to be FORCED to have Laezel to get the most out of the creche, hell, to even be forced to have Shadowheart on hand for something as minor as PICKING UP A BOOK to get the full extent of her story? There's a book in the ruined village that she reacts to, and the player can draw a 1:1 connection between the book's contents and implications for the rest of her story, which later turn out to be true. Is it meant to be "fun" to miss out on that tiny scene if you don't have her with you? What is the point?

Is the implication truly that this adventure takes place with more than half the party sitting around in a campsite while you do everything? That's a gameplay mechanic, Larian! It's not diegetic, it's not truly happening in-universe throughout the story! Why do you arbitrarily pick and choose when to remember that? It makes no sense! If everyone has something to say about Kagha going ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, why doesn't everyone have something to say about going through the entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gauntlet of shar, most especially the person WHOSE ENTIRE LIFE'S MISSION revolves around it!?

This is a 130 hour game, why do I have to play it 2+ times with entirely different parties to get a ton of its storyline and dialogue content out of it? It feels *bad*. I don't *want* Wyll in my party, but I'd still like his relevance to the damn story to advance. I don't *have* Astarion in my party this time around, but I'd still like him to be able to jump into conversation where it makes sense.

Why design it like this? Hell, would it not be EASIER to have EVERY conversation assume by default everybody is around, and account for deaths, than it is to have different versions of half of them depending on party make up?

It just seems so needlessly limiting and restrictive. I don't *want* to min-max my party to get the most out of every scenario you come across.

Imagine if you played Final Fantasy 7 and half the party didn't participate in the plot because you liked Cloud, Red XIII, and Cid the most. You go to Cloud's hometown and no real storyline happens because Tifa's in reserve. How stupid would that be?

[Mike Garrison]

I personally thought it was quite clear that the gauntlet of Shar was Shadowheart's personal quest, and that every conversation you have had with her up to that point is all about how she wants to be a Dark Justicier. So ... you leave her in camp?

OK, choice I guess. But if I were her, I would be pretty angry.

[[TG] zac]

You could get the party limit extender off nexus or elsewhere and just tow them all around....

It will trivialize combat on even the hardest settings though if you actually have them all participate.

[belgix]

They only reason why I played Wyll, Gale and Astarion it to avoid the issue you got with Shadowheart. The way I found to have maximum content in a single playthrough with 4 characters is to have one permanent character (can be any, for me it was Shadowheart my lover), one fighter because you always need one (Lae'zel or Karlash) and one "floating" party member. Selection of the "floating" party member was dependant of the quest I was doing.

[Raz]

Gonna have to agree with Mike here lol... Multiple dozens of hours of SH saying she wants to do the trials if able and you just.... Leave her at home. So much to say about this lol...

[Intern Waffle]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

I personally thought it was quite clear that the gauntlet of Shar was Shadowheart's personal quest, and that every conversation you have had with her up to that point is all about how she wants to be a Dark Justicier. So ... you leave her in camp?

OK, choice I guess. But if I were her, I would be pretty angry.

Like I said...every single other event in the game is reacted to in camp by EVERYONE, not just those who were with you. That means that for nearly 70 hours- because I played Act 1 twice- I was being told "hey, they're not sitting in camp while you're out doing stuff, they are experiencing it with you". And then for *this* thing, suddenly that was no longer the case.

Raphael meets you and takes FOUR of you to his house?

EVERY Party member speaks as if they were there.

Kagha goes nuts on you? You and 3 others fight your way through angry druids?

EVERY party member speaks as if they were there.

You go to the creche and some wild jazz goes down, and only Astarion is with you for some reason?

EVERY party member can talk to you about what happened while you were there and things you learned and saw.

But you do the Gauntlet of Shar and Shadowheart doesn't even hear a whisper of you attending it? It makes no sense. It's a stupid design decision.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by Intern Waffle:

Like I said...every single other event in the game is reacted to in camp by EVERYONE, not just those who were with you.

Only the active party members get to react to an event as it happens. The other party members only comment on it later in camp. Sometimes this can lead to them leaving the party.

Like, if Wyll is not in your party when you meet Karlach, he doesn't suddenly appear. You get to choose what to do about her as you like without his input. If you add her to your party, then Wyll doesn't get his "stink of Avernus" speech until a cutscene at long rest.

More importantly, the confrontation in the Shadowfell is not the only time when a character's personal quest requires them to be there on the spot. For example: if you don't have Karlach in your active party, Dammon won't upgrade her heart.

[belgix]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

More importantly, the confrontation in the Shadowfell is not the only time when a character's personal quest requires them to be there on the spot. For example: if you don't have Karlach in your active party, Dammon won't upgrade her heart.

Better example: at some point, Lae'zel won't be happy if you decide to go to Rosymorn Monestary w/o her. Consequences are similar as to go to The Gauntlet of Shar w/o Shadowheart.

[Intern Waffle]

And as I have repeatedly stated, the game makes it very apparent that you're communicating events to the party at the very least, or they are invisibly present.

Making that not the case in some situations is poor game design. Either they're with you or they aren't. The devs chose both.

[Raz]

Originally posted by Intern Waffle:

And as I have repeatedly stated, the game makes it very apparent that you're communicating events to the party at the very least, or they are invisibly present.

There is a golf of a difference between being told something, and doing.

Telling Shadowheart you completed the Sharran trials that would make her eligible as a Dark Justicar (taking away the necessary requirement for her to become one) is not the same thing as her doing it herself. How is this such a hard concept to grasp?

She makes various comments that she wants to be present, or experience Shar's temple. Multiple times. Before even hitting the temple. You ignoring subtext is a you problem.

[Detective Costeau]

Originally posted by Raz:

You ignoring subtext is a you problem.

It's not even subtext. It's text. It's plainly stated at least three times.

[Levianne]

Originally posted by Intern Waffle:

And as I have repeatedly stated, the game makes it very apparent that you're communicating events to the party at the very least, or they are invisibly present.

Making that not the case in some situations is poor game design. Either they're with you or they aren't. The devs chose both.

You just haven't payed good attention then. As others told you, it's a YOU problem, not the game.

The thing you defend yourself with is this story's gimmick - the damn tadpole. If there's an event and someone HAS to be present, but you leave them in camp, they will know about it, because your whole party is connected, the tadpoles communicate with each other. There are even cutscenes during some dialogues, that show this communication "your tadpole connects to Lae'zel's and she sees everything you saw" just like that. So whenever your whole party comments on events, they aren't "magically" present as invisible entities, or anything, they are still in camp, but they connect to your tadpole and learn of events that way. Same with Gale at the end of Act 2, if you keep him in camp and you get to see the Elderbrain, he will comment on the Netherill crown like he was there, but it's the tadpole connection.

And like it was mentioned several times, Shadowheart wished to do the trials, it's her calling to become a Dark Justiciar (or perhaps to defy Lady Shar, depends on your influence), you leaving her out is pissing her off. Of course she leaves your party, because you're disrespecting her gravely. Consequences.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by Intern Waffle:

And as I have repeatedly stated, the game makes it very apparent that you're communicating events to the party at the very least, or they are invisibly present.

Shadowheart does know exactly what you did. That's literally why she has a problem with you.

[Chaosolous]

She left in my first playthrough too.

I was so happy.

I do not like her that much.

[Intern Waffle]

Originally posted by Raz:

Originally posted by Intern Waffle:

And as I have repeatedly stated, the game makes it very apparent that you're communicating events to the party at the very least, or they are invisibly present.

There is a golf of a difference between being told something, and doing.

Telling Shadowheart you completed the Sharran trials that would make her eligible as a Dark Justicar (taking away the necessary requirement for her to become one) is not the same thing as her doing it herself. How is this such a hard concept to grasp?

She makes various comments that she wants to be present, or experience Shar's temple. Multiple times. Before even hitting the temple. You ignoring subtext is a you problem.

Again...for the third or fourth time...the game establishes for FORTY HOURS UNTIL THIS POINT that your ENTIRE PARTY IS IN FACT "WITH YOU" at all times.

[alanc9]

No. It does not. I've explicitly had to communicate things to companions who missed an event. The tadpoles work, but they have a range limit.