Why Cha became the core Ability in BG3?!

[Searl]

(1)Many plots force the protagonist to pass Cha-related skill tests.Sometimes you can switch teammates, but the operation is cumbersome and the skills are not shared by the whole team.
(2)Warlock's second attack can be combined with other professions' attacks to form three attacks, which conflicts with DND 5E rules, but is valid in BG3. Warlock's key Ability is Cha.
(3)Shar's mirror can add +1Cha/+2any Ability. If you are not a Cha class, then +1Cha is actually meaningless (for example, if you originally have 8Cha, +1 to 9 does not produce any benefit). Therefore, choosing +3Cha is more profitable.
(4)Some illithid powers involve saving throws. For these powers, the difficulty class is determined by your spellcasting ability modifier, even for classes that do not typically have spells. In the case of a multiclass, the ability score used by this modifier is determined by the latest class added to the multiclass. In other words, taking level 1 in a new class will switch the spellcasting ability modifier used by illthid powers (and items or scrolls) to use the new class's modifier.This means that having a Warlock class becomes important if you still want to play Mind Blast/Black Hole as a Fighter.

This results in the advantage of professions being professions related to Cha, any Class + Warlock or Bard or Sorcerer.

[Mike Garrison]

I just played a game on Honor rules with my character at 8 CHA. Won the game.

You don't *need* to pass every CHA check. Or even any of them, really.

[MadArtillery]

It makes sense, Charisma should always be a core attribute for talking your way out of things in a role playing game. Never have understood dnd's love for charisma as a casting stat though, should really just be a bard thing. You really don't NEED to pass checks, sometimes it's more fun or satisfying to not pass them and deal with the fallout or use alternative solutions. I love building ability check characters though, love how much you can benefit from focusing do on various ability checks instead of just a minmaxed combat build. Having a bunch of intelligence on my druid has been useful quite a few times for example. I think the game does a good job of having varied uses for it's stats. I hate critical fails though, failing a dc 0 check is just silly, having a dc0 check is silly in the first place.

[Searl]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

I just played a game on Honor rules with my character at 8 CHA. Won the game.

You don't *need* to pass every CHA check. Or even any of them, really.

Any general BD can won. however what I mean is that high Cha characters seem to have better benefits than other in BG3.

[Raz]

Originally posted by Searl:

(1)Many plots force the protagonist to pass Cha-related skill tests.Sometimes you can switch teammates, but the operation is cumbersome and the skills are not shared by the whole team.

No they don't? I've beaten the game as a Druid. What plot points are you talking about require a Charisma check? Elaborate, 'cause specific events you're going for may require a Charisma check, but the plot point itself does not.

Originally posted by Searl:

(2)Warlock's second attack can be combined with other professions' attacks to form three attacks, which conflicts with DND 5E rules, but is valid in BG3. Warlock's key Ability is Cha.

Which is clearly a bug that Larian is just letting people enjoy. This does not apply to Honour Mode or Honour rules. Warlocks get only two attacks on their action, just like every other class that gets extra attack at Lv5.

Originally posted by Searl:

(3)Shar's mirror can add +1Cha/+2any Ability. If you are not a Cha class, then +1Cha is actually meaningless (for example, if you originally have 8Cha, +1 to 9 does not produce any benefit). Therefore, choosing +3Cha is more profitable.

Sure it does, gets rid of that -1 you carrying now. Charisma, right behind Wisdom, is the second most detrimental Saving Throw to fail in the game with intelligence only mattering when up against Illithids.

Originally posted by Searl:

(4)Some illithid powers involve saving throws. For these powers, the difficulty class is determined by your spellcasting ability modifier, even for classes that do not typically have spells. In the case of a multiclass, the ability score used by this modifier is determined by the latest class added to the multiclass. In other words, taking level 1 in a new class will switch the spellcasting ability modifier used by illthid powers (and items or scrolls) to use the new class's modifier.This means that having a Warlock class becomes important if you still want to play Mind Blast/Black Hole as a Fighter.

Don't they use Intelligence by default when no Spell Casting modifier is present, which in the case of the Fighter is something they'd go with anyways if you Eldritch Knight them whom is also one of the better Subclasses for abusing Illithids powers.

Anyways, your issue is primarily with 5e. DnD itself benefit Charisma characters more than the other attributes. The other issue is the benefits other attributes/classes would get for their stat type doesn't translate or appear in BG3. Like the whole walking softly and hearing people through walls because of your Rogue class.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Searl:

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

I just played a game on Honor rules with my character at 8 CHA. Won the game.

You don't *need* to pass every CHA check. Or even any of them, really.

Any general BD can won. however what I mean is that high Cha characters seem to have better benefits than other in BG3.

Turns out, having more options to resolve interpersonal conflicts tends to be better than having fewer options.

Not sure how that can be addressed in BG3's already rather permissive interpretation of the system it's based on without breaking logical consistency entirely. Swinging hammer better or stabbing gooder can only do so much.

Besides that, I talked my way through everything during my first playthrough as a 12 Charisma druid with zero face skill proficiency using Guidance and Enhance Ability to shore up my rolls. Because that's literally what those spells are for. Not to mention that because of high Wisdom and Insight, I would notice things that other characters wouldn't which would result in often lower DC checks had I not had said insight to cut right to the heart of matters.

[Raz]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Originally posted by Searl:

Any general BD can won. however what I mean is that high Cha characters seem to have better benefits than other in BG3.

Besides that, I talked my way through everything during my first playthrough as a 12 Charisma druid with zero face skill proficiency using Guidance and Enhance Ability to shore up my rolls. Because that's literally what those spells are for.

Then there is the various rings you get that increase either your Persuasion or Deception.

[Mike Garrison]

Typical progression arc of a BG3 player:

1) puts all emphasis on damage output
2) finds out that you can sometimes talk your way out of fights
3) puts all emphasis on CHA and is amazed at what you can do with it
4) starts to think the game is broken because you *need* to pass all these CHA checks
5) starts to accept not passing some of the checks and finds out the game is not broken, because it can be fun to not pass the checks also
6) stops freaking out about CHA

[seeker1]

In 2e, CHA was largely a dump stat. No class needed it. What was it really good for?
In 3e, CHA became for some classes like warlocks and sorcerers their main stat. Also, there was the beginning of the use of non-combat skills like Persuasion where CHA could influence the outcome.

IMHO, a good RPG has both combat and non-combat skills, including ones in the 2nd category that enable you to resolve situations without combat. Like Persuasion.

... in short, that D & D and this 5E-based CRPG allow you to do so ... is a good thing, for people who want to RP characters other than "see enemy, smash enemy" and occasionally want to use other tactics to resolve situations besides combat.

I LOVE that BG3 has many of those situations. (Theoretically, dropping a giant rock on the heads of the enemy and killing them before combat can even start is one also, but I mostly mean talking your way out of fights.)

[Detective Costeau]

Originally posted by seeker1:

In 2e, CHA was largely a dump stat. No class needed it. What was it really good for?


I LOVE that BG3 has many of those situations.

Well, if you wanted to play a Paladin, you needed a 17 Charisma in 2nd edition.
It didn't actually do anything much for you, but you had to have it to qualify for the class.

[Metallicus]

Sounds like what someone lacking charisma would say. ;)

[Heu, Iterum Id Feci]

I mean, even at the tabletop Cha is one of the most valuable ability scores.
I've seen plenty of groups that are perfectly fine with not having a healer around...but having not a single "face" character in the party makes almost every group at the tabletop very nervous...way more nervous then having almost no casters or almost no melees....
Arguably having either a Warlock, Paladin, Sorc or Bard around is almost mandatory at the tabletop...
So I'd say that's pretty in line with the tabletop...
And yes, at the tabletop you'll encounter a lot of powergamers, only that it's usually "balanced" by a gm making it fit for however the group plays.
BG3 however has to fit for many different type of players. There aren't just powergamers, there's a whole bunch of noobs, and probably even more casual gamers who don't care for the perfect build...And the game still has to be solveable by those. So there is no need for this powergaming....you can play whatever you like...

[Wuorg]

Charisma is the most important stat in real life too. Larian's just being realistic!

[Fuzzyballs01 ꦙ]

you don't need to savescum every skillcheck
but I did make my Tav a paladin with charima for that exact reasoning
also because barbarians don't take heavy armour and we already have a fighter, paladin seems right in between

[Fuzzyballs01 ꦙ]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Typical progression arc of a BG3 player:

1) puts all emphasis on damage output
2) finds out that you can sometimes talk your way out of fights
3) puts all emphasis on CHA and is amazed at what you can do with it
4) starts to think the game is broken because you *need* to pass all these CHA checks
5) starts to accept not passing some of the checks and finds out the game is not broken, because it can be fun to not pass the checks also
6) stops freaking out about CHA

bonus: pass the check and slaughter then anyways for double xp

[seeker1]

Originally posted by Wuorg:

Charisma is the most important stat in real life too. Larian's just being realistic!

One of my favorite scenes in the original Ahhhhnold Conan the Barbarian movie.

Thulsa Doom has captured Conan and he says to him, "I used to think steel was the real source of power in this world. I was wrong." He gestures over to one of his fanatical cultists standing on top of a cliff, and she throws herself off the cliff and kills herself.

Then he says, "That. THAT is real power."