Invis and Stealth

[Brian]

If you're using invisibility (such as playing as a Duegar), does that pretty much make your stealth skill pointless? I'm wondering if I should put my expertise selection somewhere else, like perception.

[Raz]

Yes, and no. Stealth will still matter if your Invisibility gets revealed. If you use Greater Invisibility, your Stealth check is needed to not lose Invisibility. High enough Stealth, enemies would need to roll a 30 or higher to break (of course landing a 20 is an auto reveal) your Greater Invisibility which allows you to just blast enemies outside of combat without restraint.

[jonnin]

sight is not the only sense. In TT hearing would still apply, so you use silence alongside invis for the party clanker. Bg3 mostly ignores this, but did go all in on making sure you are seen in stealth by everything with darkvision, which is only 98.3% of the NPCs and monsters in the game.

[Brian]

Okay. Hmm. Sounds like it still would be better to spend the expertise somewhere else and just leave myself "proficient" in stealth.

[Raz]

Just remembered; Stealth DC check starts off reasonably high too. It starts at 15, the next check (if you succeed) is 17, and every subsequent check after that increases by 1.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Raz:

Just remembered; Stealth DC check starts off reasonably high too. It starts at 15, the next check (if you succeed) is 17, and ever subsequent check after that increases by 1.

Oh damn, okay. Good to know thanks!

[seeker1]

Fun fact, in 2E, Hide in Shadows and Move Silently were two separate skills for your thieves, and if you wanted to sneak by somebody in stealth, you had to pass both skill checks. Making sure you weren't seen OR heard. BTW, Pick Pockets, Open Locks, and Find/Disarm Traps were also three different skills, not smashed together in one called "Sleight of Hand". Thieves were the only non casters who could read and use magic scrolls, and that also required a skill check.

Also back in the day, like the name suggests, Backstabs (the predecessor of Sneak Attack) HAD to be done with daggers from behind your opponent in stealth. (Now, it doesn't even require stealth or positioning, just flanking or advantage, etc.)

[Brian]

Yeah I'm playing through BG1-2 right now and just trying to nail down a character concept for BG3 when I'm done with those. All of the things you mention are present in those games.

[Worlord]

I think at level twelve your rogue gets an ability where it can hear invisible persons if they are within 10 feet and so they cannot be surprised and the invisible person doesn't get an advantage.

[Brian]

Well if it's one thing everyone seems certain of, it's that no one should ever take a rogue past level 3 :p

[1337_h4x0r_xXx_deathlord666_xXx]

Originally posted by Brian:

Well if it's one thing everyone seems certain of, it's that no one should ever take a rogue past level 3 :p

I disagree. I've taken Rogues past level 3 plenty of times...even up to max level and had plenty of fun doing so. So it's at best "no one minus one" :P

[seeker1]

It depends on whether that rogue is a Ninja, Sanguine Stalker, Pirate, or Marauder. (My four favorite subclasses for it at this point. All homebrew, natch. Though Pirate isn't playing well with Patch 7, alas.) Kinda like the barb ones (I guess I find Storm Herald and Path of the Juggernaut best out of that group but none as good as Rage of the Pit, at least for Karlach), I hate most of the additional 5E sourced ones like Scout, Mastermind, and the RAW Swashbuckler.

Said this many times. What kind of silly Swashbuckler can't disarm, trip, flourish, or stagger their opponents with swordplay? Well, 5E RAW Swashbuckler can't, but I'm hoping Larian homebrews a bit (as they often do) on their version.

I finally found the Swashbuckler I really wanted, and while it used to be the Pirate, now it's another homebrew called the Dual Wielder.

[Carnasid]

Originally posted by seeker1:

BTW, Pick Pockets, Open Locks, and Find/Disarm Traps were also three different skills, not smashed together in one called "Sleight of Hand". Thieves were the only non casters who could read and use magic scrolls, and that also required a skill check.

5e rules correction: Pick Pockets would fall under Sleight of Hand, yes. Open Locks falls under the Thieves Tools tool proficiency, and Find Traps is under perception or investigation, depending on the specific circumstances required to locate a trap (IE: Perception to not step on that pressure plate, investigation to deliberately check a chest). Disarm Traps is also, usually, under the Thieves Tools tool proficiency, though it could, potentially, depending on the trap, be a Sleight of Hand check.
And sometimes, when the traps are magical, most of the above no longer matters and it's all arcana checks and Dispel Magic.

[seeker1]

Fair enough, but I believe BG3 merges "Thieves Tool" proficiency into Sleight of Hand.

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sleight_of_Hand

Uses
Picking locks (requires Thieves' Tools).
Disarming Traps (requires Trap Disarm Toolkit).
Pickpocketing from NPCs.
Stealing items without being noticed (see also Stealth).
[snip][end]

Though you are correct, I believe you need Perception checks to SPOT traps, it requires Sleight of Hand checks to disarm them. Dungeon Delver feat helps you FIND and spot them.

[Carnasid]

Yeah, BG3 does streamline a lot of that faff, likely to reduce micromanagement.

[[TG] zac]

Originally posted by jonnin:

sight is not the only sense. In TT hearing would still apply, so you use silence alongside invis for the party clanker. Bg3 mostly ignores this, but did go all in on making sure you are seen in stealth by everything with darkvision, which is only 98.3% of the NPCs and monsters in the game.

That ^ is actually one major complaint a lot of us older players have with how monsters and player races are handled anymore both in table top and in game.

Dark vision used to be fairly uncommon.
Higher level monsters would often have it.
Playable races rarely did and paid by not having many other things.

Low light vision was more common though not common overall.

It made things feel more risky when you actually had to either invest in magic gear or risk turning yourself into a beacon by using light/a torch.

Now so many things have darkvision on top of other useful stuff that its kind of a joke.