Baldur's Gate 3 is Awesome, But It’s Not Progressive Enough

[Cat Princess]

Okay, I know everyone loves Baldur's Gate 3, and don’t get me wrong, it’s an awesome game. The story is sick, the graphics are amazing, and the gameplay is crazy good. But I gotta be honest—there are some things I think it’s missing, and one of them is being more progressive.

Like, yeah, the game lets you choose your gender and there are LGBTQ+ characters, but I feel like it still falls short in some areas. Why is it still just the same old male/female thing? It’s 2024, and the game could have done so much more to include nonbinary characters or give players more freedom in exploring gender beyond the usual binary.

Sure, there are some cool LGBTQ+ moments, but it kinda feels like they’re just there for the sake of inclusion, not like they really changed the game or the story in any big way. And relationships? They’re mostly straight, and there’s no real deep dive into how different genders and identities could affect the gameplay.

I love this game, but I feel like it missed a big chance to really push things forward. What do you guys think? Do you agree, or am I just being too picky?

[seeker1]

At what exactly?

Bioshock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock#Further_reading

The Boston Globe described it as "a beautiful, brutal, and disquieting computer game ... one of the best in years",[105] and compared the game to Whittaker Chambers' 1957 riposte to Atlas Shrugged, "Big Sister Is Watching You". Wired also mentioned the Ayn Rand connection (a partial anagram of Andrew Ryan) in a report on the game which featured a brief interview with Levine.[106] The Chicago Sun-Times review said "I never once thought anyone would be able to create an engaging and entertaining video game around the fiction and philosophy of Ayn Rand, but that is essentially what 2K Games has done ... the rare, mature video game that succeeds in making you think while you play."

[snip][end]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ryan_(BioShock)

The character of Ryan was created by Ken Levine of Irrational Games, drawing inspiration from real-life figures like Ayn Rand, Howard Hughes,[1] and Walt Disney.[2] Critics have praised Ryan, with Electronic Gaming Monthly ranking him ninth on their list of top ten video game politicians.[3] He is voiced by Armin Shimerman, whose voice acting contributed to BioShock's success and earned the game "Best Use of Sound" from IGN. Ryan has been compared to various real-life and fictional figures, and the world of Rapture has been likened to the setting of Galt's Gulch in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged.

[snip][end]

Andrew Ryan's name is an anagram of "We R Ayn Rand".

[Safebox]

seeker1 a écrit :

At what exactly?

Bioshock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioShock#Further_reading

The Boston Globe described it as "a beautiful, brutal, and disquieting computer game ... one of the best in years",[105] and compared the game to Whittaker Chambers' 1957 riposte to Atlas Shrugged, "Big Sister Is Watching You". Wired also mentioned the Ayn Rand connection (a partial anagram of Andrew Ryan) in a report on the game which featured a brief interview with Levine.[106] The Chicago Sun-Times review said "I never once thought anyone would be able to create an engaging and entertaining video game around the fiction and philosophy of Ayn Rand, but that is essentially what 2K Games has done ... the rare, mature video game that succeeds in making you think while you play."

[snip][end]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ryan_(BioShock)

The character of Ryan was created by Ken Levine of Irrational Games, drawing inspiration from real-life figures like Ayn Rand, Howard Hughes,[1] and Walt Disney.[2] Critics have praised Ryan, with Electronic Gaming Monthly ranking him ninth on their list of top ten video game politicians.[3] He is voiced by Armin Shimerman, whose voice acting contributed to BioShock's success and earned the game "Best Use of Sound" from IGN. Ryan has been compared to various real-life and fictional figures, and the world of Rapture has been likened to the setting of Galt's Gulch in Ayn Rand's novel Atlas Shrugged.

[snip][end]

Andrew Ryan's name is an anagram of "We R Ayn Rand".

Exactly, there is very very few pieces of media not containing politics of some kind. Politics is literally the fuel behind works of art; almost every game, tv show, movie, book, song, and painting ever made was made with politics either in mind or with the creators' personal beliefs.

[half a green doctor pepper]

this is bait, but y'know what? You're RIGHT.

Faerun is one of the most diverse settings in popular fiction, with such a vast array of races and unique and distinct cultures. YET, for all of Larian's progressive showboating, all we see in the most prolific piece of Forgotten Realms media to date are REGULAR HUMANS and a handful of Elves who look and, more importantly, ACT exactly like humans. ELVES ARE SO DIFFERENT FROM HUMANS!!! THEY'RE NIGH IMORTALS WHO DONT SLEEP, BUT DREAM ENDLESSLY ABOUT PAST LIVES! WHY'RE YOU TALKING LIKE MY BUDDY GREG??????

Worse still, there's no dwarf, halfling, or gnomish companions, no. They show up, sure, but only as low-impact side characters whose stories are shown as irrelevant, because the game is afraid of anything non-human. The game focuses solely on boring-ass regular humans and human-adjacents. Even the GITH, the GREEN ALIENS of the forgotten realms have been DRASTICALLY TONED DOWN and GENTRIFIED to meet human standards. The only time we really get to dive in to a unique. distinctly alien and inhuman culture is in the Myconid colony in act 1, but it's such a fleeting glimpse of what SHOULD be a CORE FOCUS OF A GAME ABOUT ADVENTURING.

TLDR: Europeans are cowards who use progressive-ism to hide the fact that they're afraid of other cultures

This is easily the most disappointing thing about BG3 for me.

[@%thesock10150alpha49]

meatshot misser a écrit :

Worse still, there's no dwarf, halfling, or gnomish companions

Ew, short people.

It's already bad enough that I constantly have to play sub-optimal builds because all the mini's have the best racial passives, but now you want me to have to carry one of those little things around in my party?!

Too far. Too far.

[Safebox]

meatshot misser a écrit :

this is bait, but y'know what? You're RIGHT.

Faerun is one of the most diverse settings in popular fiction, with such a vast array of races and unique and distinct cultures. YET, for all of Larian's progressive showboating, all we see in the most prolific piece of Forgotten Realms media to date are REGULAR HUMANS and a handful of Elves who look and, more importantly, ACT exactly like humans. ELVES ARE SO DIFFERENT FROM HUMANS!!! THEY'RE NIGH IMORTALS WHO DONT SLEEP, BUT DREAM ENDLESSLY ABOUT PAST LIVES! WHY'RE YOU TALKING LIKE MY BUDDY GREG??????

Worse still, there's no dwarf, halfling, or gnomish companions, no. They show up, sure, but only as low-impact side characters whose stories are shown as irrelevant, because the game is afraid of anything non-human. The game focuses solely on boring-ass regular humans and human-adjacents. Even the GITH, the GREEN ALIENS of the forgotten realms have been DRASTICALLY TONED DOWN and GENTRIFIED to meet human standards. The only time we really get to dive in to a unique. distinctly alien and inhuman culture is in the Myconid colony in act 1, but it's such a fleeting glimpse of what SHOULD be a CORE FOCUS OF A GAME ABOUT ADVENTURING.

TLDR: Europeans are afraid.

This is easily the most disappointing thing about BG3 for me.

This is also such a bizarre take, as someone who's played the last two BG titles...
I do agree it's disappointing that all our companions are normal height humans, but most of the other points here kinda ignore the lore of Baldur's Gate and the area just outside it.

First off, most of the residents in Baldur's Gate are human. That's always been the case for as long as the Forgotten Realms mythos has existed. The second most populous groups of people are elves and half-elves. After that is dwarves which are common but still rare. The manner in which all of the characters talk feels off compared to the previous two games, but I chalked that up to Larian trying to make the game feel like an actual DnD session by having the narrator voice most of the NPCs, hence why the generic ones sound normal and the relevant NPCs have unique ways of speaking. There's also the oddity of accents being all over the place to the point that even a pair of siblings speak with a British and an American accent. I would argue it's just immigration between the races and time passing since older characters speak with rural European and American accents while the younger ones speak with British and Irish accents. But that sibling point throws a wrench in things.

As for the Gith, well they're complicated enough for regular DnD players to get their heads around so without handing someone a lore book and expecting them to read for 20 hours before playing, then gentrification was probably for the best. I wouldn't say the colony is the only alien part of the world though, the other Githzerai and the illithid underground base was alien to me. As was the Dream Guardian and The Absolute for a while, before they both revealed their identities and it kinda fell into the usual trope of "DM thinks they have a unique twist for a story".

PS. I also don't know what you mean by showboating, cause I don't remember Larian making any PR noise about the diversity or gender stuff. The first I even heard either were a thing was when the character creator launched ahead of the game's release later in the same month.

[seeker1]

Exactly, there is very very few pieces of media not containing politics of some kind. Politics is literally the fuel behind works of art; almost every game, tv show, movie, book, song, and painting ever made was made with politics either in mind or with the creators' personal beliefs.

Yes, but, and allow me to split a key hair here ... I would not argue it's pushing a "political agenda". It isn't telling you to adopt any particular set of political beliefs.

If it is questioning the ideas of Ayn Rand and Objectivism, and I think it is, well yeah it is doing that, but I would argue the point of the game is not even to talk Objectivists out of their ideology, but maybe just to think about and question what might be the outcome of what could happen if some of Rand's ideas were applied ...

You are right that lots of kinds of art contain social commentary, and that (some) games are worth thinking of as a form of art (I think this one is) ... but another example I'd give is Picasso's painting Guernica. There's no point in disputing it contains social commentary, particularly on the horrors of the Fascist bombing of that town in Spain, but I wouldn't argue it is "pushing a political agenda" because ... it isn't.

[Safebox]

seeker1 a écrit :

Exactly, there is very very few pieces of media not containing politics of some kind. Politics is literally the fuel behind works of art; almost every game, tv show, movie, book, song, and painting ever made was made with politics either in mind or with the creators' personal beliefs.

Yes, but, and allow me to split a key hair here ... I would not argue it's pushing a "political agenda". It isn't telling you to adopt any particular set of political beliefs.

If it is questioning the ideas of Ayn Rand and Objectivism, and I think it is, well yeah it is doing that, but I would argue the point of the game is not even to talk Objectivists out of their ideology, but maybe just to think about and question what might be the outcome of what could happen if some of Rand's ideas were applied ...

According to Levine himself, it's not an attack on Rand or Objectivism. According to him it's more a look at humanity itself and appeal to an authority figure in times of crisis, and Ayn Rand was just a vehicle to explore that philosophy through. Which we do kinda see in the game with the various groups that popped up trying to survive, and even the player's subconscious obedience (both in the narrative with Jack and literally with the player) of Fontaine via "would you kindly". You see similar analysis in Bioshock Infinite with its look at mob mentalities, celebrity worship, and the American Dream.

Even so, it still backs my point that most games are political. Even if they don't "push an agenda", they're still shaped by the beliefs of the creators behind the scenes.

[Orion Invictus]

Safebox a écrit :

seeker1 a écrit :

Yes, but, and allow me to split a key hair here ... I would not argue it's pushing a "political agenda". It isn't telling you to adopt any particular set of political beliefs.

If it is questioning the ideas of Ayn Rand and Objectivism, and I think it is, well yeah it is doing that, but I would argue the point of the game is not even to talk Objectivists out of their ideology, but maybe just to think about and question what might be the outcome of what could happen if some of Rand's ideas were applied ...

According to Levine himself, it's not an attack on Rand or Objectivism.

An accurate, realistic depiction of those principles would probably be construed as an attack. It happens all the time with ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ideologies.

[⎛⎝ Kupo ⎠⎞]

Steam users don't take the bait challenge impossible.

[xReadyAimMissx]

Caitlyn77 a écrit :

Holy moly this thread exploded. So just so you know it was some AI generated slop hastily prompted in 5 seconds to elicit most response. You are arguing with AI

But even with me saying it aloud you will keep arguing and bickering here because you just can't stop yourself

It's because of posts like this that cause unneeded hate towards those of us part of the LGBT+ and other minority groups. People immediately assumed it was one of us who made this dumb post, but in reality we want the same things everyone else want. Really good story, well written characters, great world design, good music, as bug free as possible and a complete game at launch. Including us in games when it fits the story, character background and world that was designed is always welcome and not an extreme thing to be happy about.

I wish people knew how to separate us from the trolls or the very small % of extremists. We are not them.

[Safebox]

xReadyAimMissx a écrit :

Caitlyn77 a écrit :

Holy moly this thread exploded. So just so you know it was some AI generated slop hastily prompted in 5 seconds to elicit most response. You are arguing with AI

But even with me saying it aloud you will keep arguing and bickering here because you just can't stop yourself

It's because of posts like this that cause unneeded hate towards those of us part of the LGBT+ and other minority groups. People immediately assumed it was one of us who made this dumb post, but in reality we want the same things everyone else want. Really good story, well written characters, great world design, good music, as bug free as possible and a complete game at launch. Including us in games when it fits the story, character background and world that was designed is always welcome and not an extreme thing to be happy about.

I wish people knew how to separate us from the trolls or the very small % of extremists. We are not them.

I think this wholesome post is where I'm gonna leave for now. Take care of yourselves everyone, and try to have a good 2025 with less trolls and more games.

[Alter]

seeker1 a écrit :

snip
Andrew Ryan's name is an anagram of "We R Ayn Rand".

Oh, my bad. You meant Bioshock. I don't know or care about that game.

I thought you were referring to BG3, because you worded it poorly.

fwiw tho, you can't "misuse" Ayn Rand's teachings any more than you can misuse a fishnet condom: Unless your skull has more dents than a golf ball, you just go "wow, what a stupid thing this is" and then you throw it away.

Most (halfway intelligent) people recognize that you should try looking at situations objectively wherever possible because it has a great deal of merit (keeps things in perspective, helps you make fair judgments), while also recognizing that you have to be truly dumb as ♥♥♥♥ to try forcing -everything- into an objective position. That's like "random 20 year-old pseudo-intellectual on reddit" grade stupidity.

[Safebox]

Alter a écrit :

seeker1 a écrit :

snip
Andrew Ryan's name is an anagram of "We R Ayn Rand".

Oh, my bad. You meant Bioshock. I don't know or care about that game.

I thought you were referring to BG3, because you worded it poorly.

fwiw tho, you can't "misuse" Ayn Rand's teachings any more than you can misuse a fishnet condom: Unless your skull has more dents than a golf ball, you just go "wow, what a stupid thing this is" and then you throw it away.

Most (halfway intelligent) people recognize that you should try looking at situations objectively wherever possible because it has a great deal of merit (keeps things in perspective, helps you make fair judgments), while also recognizing that you have to be truly dumb as ♥♥♥♥ to try forcing -everything- into an objective position. That's like "random 20 year-old pseudo-intellectual on reddit" grade stupidity.

Or it's more that looking at everything objectively is something that few people can actually do...namely people with ASD or sociopaths climbing the corporate ladder. Everyone else is too emotional to remain wholly objective, which is why most major decisions are made with group consensus to come to an average "objective" end.

Ayn Rand really shouldn't be scoffed at though, her philosophies founded the basis for a lot of modern business degrees and managerial go-to guides alongside Sun Tzu's Art of War. It doesn't necessarily make them good leaders, but it gets them up the ladder to where the money is.

[seeker1]

Alter a écrit :

I thought you were referring to BG3, because you worded it poorly.

No, in English grammar, sentences closest to the referent are dealing with the referent. Since I mentioned Bioshock, every sentence after that was referring to Bioshock. not to BG3 which I mentioned in preceding sentences.

Most (halfway intelligent) people recognize that you should try looking at situations objectively wherever possible because it has a great deal of merit (keeps things in perspective, helps you make fair judgments), while also recognizing that you have to be truly dumb as ♥♥♥♥ to try forcing -everything- into an objective position. That's like "random 20 year-old pseudo-intellectual on reddit" grade stupidity.

BTW, the Objectivist philosophy of Ayn Rand is not that one should look at all situations objectively.

Which, in itself, is not a bad position, but in fact Objectivism is a moral, social, and political ideology she argued for, notably in novels like Atlas Shrugged. If I were to Cliff Notes Objectivist philosophy, I'd describe it this way. "Selfishness is a virtue, altruism is a vice." Although others might describe it as "laissez-faire, unrestricted, right-libertarian capitalism is the best possible system for human beings". It's basically a form of anarcho-capitalism. But Rand famously named this ideology Objectivism because she CLAIMED objective reason should lead anybody to agree with her position, and only slippery emotional subjectivity could lead you to any other conclusion.

... of course, that didn't mean she had a monopoly on objective truth, anymore than a number of stern ideologues throughout history.

[@%thesock10150alpha49]

xReadyAimMissx a écrit :

It's because of posts like this that cause unneeded hate towards those of us part of the LGBT+ and other minority groups. People immediately assumed it was one of us who made this dumb post, but in reality we want the same things everyone else want. Really good story, well written characters, great world design, good music, as bug free as possible and a complete game at launch. Including us in games when it fits the story, character background and world that was designed is always welcome and not an extreme thing to be happy about.

I wish people knew how to separate us from the trolls or the very small % of extremists. We are not them.

Anybody that read the OP and/or followed even just a few of the comments, but couldn't clearly tell this was trollbait, should have their lower cognitive function checked by a medical professional. I mean, there was talk of identifying as astral phenomena for [insert deity]'s sake.