Is 2-Weapon Fighting viable for a Fighter? What about if they're the Tank?

[Jeff Kaos]

So, I'm coming directly from a few hundred hours of BG1&2 (just finished a legacy run a few days ago) and I'm also not very familiar with 5e rules (I'm kind of old and the last time I played D&D with friends 2nd ed had just been released) but after a couple of hours with BG3 and getting a grasp of the d20 skill tests and I'm getting the hang of the basics. Firing up BG3 I decided to go way outside my normal playstyle and try RP'ing as a generic Fighter/Mercenary type character. I'm wondering if I can play an effective Tank and use 2-Weapons if I utilize the correct Weapon Styles and Feats? Normally I go Sword and Board for a Tank but with the smaller party size and the game having turn-based combat I'm looking to add a little more variety/versatility to the people in my party.

I've looked up some info about 2-Weapon Fighting in this game and most of the comments I've seen from other players seem to indicate that this isn't a very efficient way of fighting. One major question I have is whether or not 2 weapons make 2 separate attacks? In BG1&2 each hand made a separate attack with negative modifiers (with the off-hand having a higher negative modifier) that eventually became nullified as you became more and more proficient in your weapon and the 2-Weapon Style. But in BG5 it sounds like you make one attack with negative modifiers and the off-hand weapon just adds bonus damage. If this is the case is the bonus damage the weapons base damage? Or is there a different calculation involved? Or am I totally misreading this and it works the way the first game did, with each hand making a separate attack roll?

[Wuorg]

Originally posted by Jeff Kaos:

So, I'm coming directly from a few hundred hours of BG1&2 (just finished a legacy run a few days ago) and I'm also not very familiar with 5e rules (I'm kind of old and the last time I played D&D with friends 2nd ed had just been released) but after a couple of hours with BG3 and getting a grasp of the d20 skill tests and I'm getting the hang of the basics. Firing up BG3 I decided to go way outside my normal playstyle and try RP'ing as a generic Fighter/Mercenary type character. I'm wondering if I can play an effective Tank and use 2-Weapons if I utilize the correct Weapon Styles and Feats? Normally I go Sword and Board for a Tank but with the smaller party size and the game having turn-based combat I'm looking to add a little more variety/versatility to the people in my party.

I've looked up some info about 2-Weapon Fighting in this game and most of the comments I've seen from other players seem to indicate that this isn't a very efficient way of fighting. One major question I have is whether or not 2 weapons make 2 separate attacks? In BG1&2 each hand made a separate attack with negative modifiers (with the off-hand having a higher negative modifier) that eventually became nullified as you became more and more proficient in your weapon and the 2-Weapon Style. But in BG5 it sounds like you make one attack with negative modifiers and the off-hand weapon just adds bonus damage. If this is the case is the bonus damage the weapons base damage? Or is there a different calculation involved? Or am I totally misreading this and it works the way the first game did, with each hand making a separate attack roll?

So, in 5e, you get an Action and a Bonus Action every turn, yeah? With just one weapon, you can make an attack with your Action. With two-weapon fighting you can both do that, and make another attack with your off-hand weapon with your Bonus Action. This is GREAT if you weren't making use of your Bonus Action anyway (as a Fighter, you probably didn't have something to do with it *every* turn, so this is good--just be aware that doing things like Jumping and Shoving are mutually exclusive with an off-hand attack in the same turn, unless you have a way to get another Bonus Action).

People will talk about how it is less optimal for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day we aren't talking that big of a difference. And BG3 showers you in so many magic items, sometimes it is better to have two one-handed magic weapons rather than one two-handed weapon anyway.

That said, you *definitely* want both the Fighting Style and Feat. They are basically essential for this kind of build (with both, you will completely remove the penalties on the off-hand weapon, as well as get +1 to AC--half of a shield--and the ability to dual wield non-light weapons). You can totally tank with it with the right setup, no problem. Consider feats like Heavy Armor Master, Defensive Duelist, and Tough.

Two-Weapon fighting will get less efficient for a Fighter as they gain levels, thanks to how Extra Attack works (I won't get into the weeds about it, unless you want me to), but in BG3 you'll be fine :)

Edit: Added some more details.

Edit2: While this is fine for tanking, I should mention that two-handers are the kings of consistent damage in BG3 and 5e. Your damage will be solid, even above-par until level 5, but don't be surprised if you notice Karlach (barbarian) or Lae'zel (fighter with two-hander fighting style) start to double or even triple your per-round damage as the party gains levels, assuming they both took the feat for two-handers as well.

[seeker1]

In terms of overall raw damage numbers, 2H weapons esp. with GWM /2H Fighting Style > dual 1H weapon fighting.

However ... if you have two weapons in each hand with unique properties (and you need to note whether those only work in the main hand or not), it can sometimes be preferable to dual wield. As you can use the properties of both the LH and RH weapon.

A tanking fighter might want to use a shield. With many shields, you can shield bash as a reaction. With some shields, this even does damage, but can knock the enemy prone. With the shield master feat in feats rebalanced mod, you can now bash with your shield as a (bonus) action, making it a potential quasi offhand attack.

[Jeff Kaos]

Originally posted by Wuorg:

Originally posted by Jeff Kaos:

So, I'm coming directly from a few hundred hours of BG1&2 (just finished a legacy run a few days ago) and I'm also not very familiar with 5e rules (I'm kind of old and the last time I played D&D with friends 2nd ed had just been released) but after a couple of hours with BG3 and getting a grasp of the d20 skill tests and I'm getting the hang of the basics. Firing up BG3 I decided to go way outside my normal playstyle and try RP'ing as a generic Fighter/Mercenary type character. I'm wondering if I can play an effective Tank and use 2-Weapons if I utilize the correct Weapon Styles and Feats? Normally I go Sword and Board for a Tank but with the smaller party size and the game having turn-based combat I'm looking to add a little more variety/versatility to the people in my party.

I've looked up some info about 2-Weapon Fighting in this game and most of the comments I've seen from other players seem to indicate that this isn't a very efficient way of fighting. One major question I have is whether or not 2 weapons make 2 separate attacks? In BG1&2 each hand made a separate attack with negative modifiers (with the off-hand having a higher negative modifier) that eventually became nullified as you became more and more proficient in your weapon and the 2-Weapon Style. But in BG5 it sounds like you make one attack with negative modifiers and the off-hand weapon just adds bonus damage. If this is the case is the bonus damage the weapons base damage? Or is there a different calculation involved? Or am I totally misreading this and it works the way the first game did, with each hand making a separate attack roll?

So, in 5e, you get an Action and a Bonus Action every turn, yeah? With just one weapon, you can make an attack with your Action. With two-weapon fighting you can both do that, and make another attack with your off-hand weapon with your Bonus Action. This is GREAT if you weren't making use of your Bonus Action anyway (as a Fighter, you probably didn't have something to do with it *every* turn, so this is good--just be aware that doing things like Jumping and Shoving are mutually exclusive with an off-hand attack in the same turn, unless you have a way to get another Bonus Action).

People will talk about how it is less optimal for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day we aren't talking that big of a difference. And BG3 showers you in so many magic items, sometimes it is better to have two one-handed magic weapons rather than one two-handed weapon anyway.

That said, you *definitely* want both the Fighting Style and Feat. They are basically essential for this kind of build (with both, you will completely remove the penalties on the off-hand weapon, as well as get +1 to AC--half of a shield--and the ability to dual wield non-light weapons). You can totally tank with it with the right setup, no problem. Consider feats like Heavy Armor Master, Defensive Duelist, and Tough.

Two-Weapon fighting will get less efficient for a Fighter as they gain levels, thanks to how Extra Attack works (I won't get into the weeds about it, unless you want me to), but in BG3 you'll be fine :)

Edit: Added some more details.

Edit2: While this is fine for tanking, I should mention that two-handers are the kings of consistent damage in BG3 and 5e. Your damage will be solid, even above-par until level 5, but don't be surprised if you notice Karlach (barbarian) or Lae'zel (fighter with two-hander fighting style) start to double or even triple your per-round damage as the party gains levels, assuming they both took the feat for two-handers as well.

Thanks for the answer, it explains a lot in an easy to understand manner. I'm going to have to pay more attention to combat mechanics for a while because I'm not fully understanding the Bonus Actions but I've only got a few hours into the game so it's still "Early Days" for me. I think I'll hit up the Wiki a little more to get a grasp of the combat.

[jonnin]

dual is viable. Most likely you would run 3 levels of thief in the mid levels (8-11) to get (2 main hands, 2 offhands) and at 11 swap back to pure fighter if you want (3 main hands, 1 offhand). 2h outpaces it esp with 3 mainhand attacks (which barbarian can do at 5th level when raged).

A dual wield tank replaces their shield via +1 armor style (instead of dual style) and +1 armor from DW feat -- at the cost of some damage. Tanking isn't really a thing though: the AI attacks the easiest thing to hit, with a go get them for anyone concentrating on any spell, and it will ignore people that are very hard to hit or shapechanged druids unless no other target is reachable. Most often you will dance in and out of range shooting until they dash close, then swap to melee and send your interceptor person to cap shooters/casters. This is another vote for rogue 3 -- you can dash twice and hide then whack their caster out of stealth 4 times on round 2.

[Limdood]

OK, so here's a breakdown:

Normal 2 weapon fighting, with no feats and no fighting styles lets you wield two light weapons at once. They must both be light, which means you're limited to d6 damage weapons. An action lets you attack with your main hand however many times your level allows (so once if you don't have the extra attack class feature, twice with the feature, and 3 times as an 11th level fighter), and you do weapon damage + ability modifier damage (which is strength unless you're using a finesse weapon and dex is higher). Your off-hand weapon uses your bonus action to attack, and doesn't benefit from extra attack OR from ability modifier to damage.

2-weapon fighting STYLE grants you ability modifier to damage with your off-hand weapon, which means that you're generally getting +3/4/5 damage depending on your Str/Dex.

2-weapon fighting feat gives +1 armor class when dual wielding and allows you to dual wield while using non-light 1-handed weapons. Generally this means you're upgrading your damage dice from d6s to d8s, though it also opens up a much wider variety of weapons, which is relevant in this magic-item-rich game.


Mathematically, it LOOKS like 2-weapon fighting is somewhat comparable to great weapon fighting. +1 AC, + roughly 5-7 damage on normal attacks (2d8+ double ability modifier vs. 2d6 + ability modifier), but no big -5 to hit for +10 damage. But things start evening out when you get extra attack, since your dual wield damage becomes ~3d8+ triple ability, and the great weapon is 4d6+double ability, Still looks like dual wield is ahead....until...

The nails in the coffin:
- great weapon master gives free attacks using your bonus action when you kill a target, allowing you to outdamage dual wield anytime you drop an enemy.
- Dual wield locks down your bonus action. That means using a potion, jumping, activating some items, using second wind, or anything else that uses your bonus action cuts deeply into your effectiveness.
- With the size of many of the encounter areas in BG3 (which is amazing, and frankly makes combat in this game legitimately better than many tabletop games that just devolve into a stand-and-whack fest), and the fact that jumping is the easiest way to extend your movement range, that offhand attack hogging your bonus action can be rough.
- there are many ways to gain extra actions in the game, with haste, elixir of bloodlust, and the fighter's action surge. Those significantly impact the effectiveness of your offhand, since you're further boosting your main hand (getting another full action's worth of attacks, but not getting any more bonus actions)


in general, dual wielding is fairly decent for the first few levels until extra attack comes along, or for rogues, who can use the offhand attack as a second chance to land a sneak attack if their main hand misses. But for the most part, great weapon fighting will usually outdamage dual wielding, and weapon + shield provides superior protection and versatility (allowing you to pick a different fighting style such as defense or archery. Especially since you keep your shield bonus to AC when using a bow in BG3)

[Zaris]

You can just do a simple calculation to see how big the gap is BUT you also need to keep in mind that Larian made many DD5 changes. For example the magic missile mage is very overpowered because there are many bonus dmg sources from items which counts on every single hit of MM. Same for the monk with tavern brawler? perk which makes it way more OP than the normal version.

For the fighter just a basic calculation:

Dual wield:
- weapons each let's say D6+3, str 23 (+6), acid ring? (+2)
- hasted / hard difficulty 3 actions +1 action surge: 8 main attacks + 1 offhand attack)
9 attacks first round, 7 after that,
- dmg: 9*(d6+3 weapon + 6 str + 2 ring) = 9 * 14,5 = 130

Twohanded:
- weapons each let's say 2D6+3, str 23 (+6), acid ring? (+2), great weapon master +10
- bless + advantage ring from moonlight tower vendor negates the great weapon master -5 debuff easily
- hasted / hard difficulty 3 actions +1 action surge: 8 attacks + 1 if you kill a target or crit, which happens often enough with 8 attacks before, mostly 9 attacks
- dmg: 9*(2d6+3 weapon + 6 str + 2 ring +10 gwm) = 9 * 28 = 252

DW 130 vs 2h 252 dmg, nearly double the dmg.

If you want to play a dual wield character maybe look at the sword bard with crit equip. There are some youtube guides available and is equite OP.

[Raz]

People have broken down the math extensively already on the two perks. Two-Weapon Fighting is left in the dust by Great Weapon Fighting when it comes down to damage even when you're going for a critical build (critical weapon in both hands, critical weapon in bow slot, the cloak slot, and whichever ever other slot so you get down to 12 ~ 13 needed to critical hit on a roll) because +10 straight damage that ignores a lot of the damage reductions in the game with few exceptions is incredibly hard to beat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yvkymYb-vA

As other said, if you're going Dual Wield, its for the traits/crowd control, not so much damage compared to two-handed weapons. That leads into a different argument about which is better when a dead enemy is a crowd controlled because a target that can't damage you, nor take a turn is better than one that can make a Saving Throw and get back into the fray.

At the end of the day; preference. I just enjoy the look of it, and I got mods to make dual wield catch up to GWM to a degree so I ain't bothered.