Open Hand Temple - doesn't it contradict the canon?

[gbuglyo]

I've just had my first look around the Open Hand Temple trying to solve the murder case, but there is one thing that strikes me as odd. You see, I'm also a DM in our D&D group and my idea of monks (especially those of the Way of the Open Hand) has been very different.

I always thought that D&D monks are heavily inspired by real-life Shaolin monks, and when I present an Open Hand Temple in my campaign, I always imagine it as a Buddhist temple and if it's located in Faerun, it's at least partially populated by immigrants from Shou. In this game, however, the temple is nothing like that. The monks do not look like they came or descended from Shou, they dress and behave like medieval Christian monks (i.e., their work is "to interpret the scriptures and serve the Lord"). If it were my campaign, I might refer to these guys as monks (simply because they live in a monastery) but definitely not of the Open Hand. Gameplay-wise, I would probably treat them as clerics of Ilmater.

Am I missing something here? Are there any canonical Open Hand Temples like this one?

[Lani]

Isn't that a temple of Lathander's Open Hand rather than a Way of the Open Hand shrine?
I may be wrong but I believe murdred priest followed Lathander.

Edit: Ah correction. Ilmater of course

[hannibal_pjv]

Baldurs gate monks are not eastern monks. No eastern weapoms neither. But in your tabletop Games… keep the eastern wibe, i liike it better! But it is not a canon!

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by Lani:

Isn't that a temple of Lathander's Open Hand rather than a Way of the Open Hand shrine?
I may be wrong but I believe murdred priest follwoed Lathander.

I don't know. It seems that Lathander's Open Hand is just the name of a particular Lathander shrine located in the Dalelands, not a general name, and definitely shouldn't be referred to as an "Open Hand Temple". Also, these monks seem to serve Ilmater (allied with Lathander, I know, but still weird).

[Lani]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

Originally posted by Lani:

Isn't that a temple of Lathander's Open Hand rather than a Way of the Open Hand shrine?
I may be wrong but I believe murdred priest follwoed Lathander.

I don't know. It seems that Lathander's Open Hand is just the name of a particular Lathander shrine located in the Dalelands, not a general name, and definitely shouldn't be referred to as an "Open Hand Temple". Also, these monks seem to serve Ilmater (allied with Lathender, I know, but still weird).

Yeah you're right, sorry. You started replying before my edit.
It's Ilmater's temple though.
Symbol "a pair of white hands crossed and bound at the wrist with a blood-red cord".
Which is shown above the entrance if I'm not mistaken.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by Lani:

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

I don't know. It seems that Lathander's Open Hand is just the name of a particular Lathander shrine located in the Dalelands, not a general name, and definitely shouldn't be referred to as an "Open Hand Temple". Also, these monks seem to serve Ilmater (allied with Lathender, I know, but still weird).

Yeah you're right, sorry. You started replying before my edit.
It's Ilmater's temple though.
Symbol "a pair of white hands crossed and bound at the wrist with a blood-red cord".
Which is shown above the entrance if I'm not mistaken.

So perhaps that's where the writers got the name "Open Hand" from, without being aware of the connotations of "monks" and "Open Hand"? To test this, I'll try attacking them and reload, to see if they use martial arts to defend themselves. :)

[The 13th Ghost Bunny]

I'm guessing they used "Open Hand" as the name of the temple of Ilmater because Ilmater is the god of compassion and aiding the suffering, and the open hand is a common symbol for charity, compassion, etc.

[Lani]

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

So perhaps that's where the writers got the name "Open Hand" from, without being aware of the connotations of "monks" and "Open Hand"? To test this, I'll try attacking them and reload, to see if they use martial arts to defend themselves. :)

Well, 'open hand' can mean different things which are capable of existing simultaneously. RL proves that. The Ilmater Open Hand Temple is offering aid with open hands which makes it an appropriate name.
The Way of the Open Hand originated as the Empty Hand right? Referencing the no-handheld weapons-used style?
So in a real world trademark case they'd probably loose out even if they could somehow claim a prior presence in the Swords Coast under the name Temple of the Open Hand. Prior to Ilmater's that is.

Anyhoo, it's a lore appropriate name for a humanitarian temple of Ilmater.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by The 13th Ghost Bunny:

I'm guessing they used "Open Hand" as the name of the temple of Ilmater because Ilmater is the god of compassion, and the open hand is a common symbol for charity, compassion, etc.

Yeah, it seems so. I just tested it, these guys don't fight, they rely fully on the Flaming Fist for defense.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by Lani:

Originally posted by gbuglyo:

So perhaps that's where the writers got the name "Open Hand" from, without being aware of the connotations of "monks" and "Open Hand"? To test this, I'll try attacking them and reload, to see if they use martial arts to defend themselves. :)

Well, 'open hand' can mean different things which are capable of existing simultaneously. RL proves that. The Ilmater Open Hand Temple is offering aid with open hands which makes it an appropriate name.
The Way of the Open Hand originated as the Empty Hand right? Referencing the no-handheld weapons-used style?
So in a real world trademark case they'd probably loose out even if they could somehow claim a prior presence in the Swords Coast under the name Temple of the Open Hand. Prior to Ilmater's that is.

Anyhoo, it's a lore appropriate name for a humanitarian temple of Ilmater.

No arguments from me there, but maybe they should have picked another name to avoid confusion? Any D&D player who hears of "monks living in a Temple of the Open Hand" will think the same thing at first.

[wendigo211]

It's largely a case of retcons and lore from earlier editions being changed overtime. The Monk class was originally introduced in an Oriental Adventures book way back in 1e/2e time and at that time it was a lawful variant of the Thief class since characters like Samurai were forbidden from travelling from non-lawful companions. But yes it was based on Shaolin monks. Overtime and editions it's gotten muddier with eastern monks mixed up with western monks. I think 3rd edition was probably the worst in this regard with prestige classes like the Sacred Fist combining monks with clerics.

In the case of Ilmater, the god himself is a monk and his favored weapon is unarmed strikes. And yes, the open hand monks[forgottenrealms.fandom.com] are a martial order of unarmed monks in D&D. However, the Monks of the Yellow Rose[forgottenrealms.fandom.com] are the order of monks devoted to Ilmater. Even among those monks, they have a mixture of martial artists, clerics and archivists. I guess it's kind of a western monastery with some Shaolin monks mulling about.

I assume they picked "open hand" for the monastery because it combines an image of charity with Ilmater's holy symbol of two bound hands. That said, the bound hand monastery would have been a better name for an Ilmateri refuge. I think this is a case of the authors not knowing that name they chose was affiliated with something else in FR.

[gbuglyo]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

It's largely a case of retcons and lore from earlier editions being changed overtime. The Monk class was originally introduced in an Oriental Adventures book way back in 1e/2e time and at that time it was a lawful variant of the Thief class since characters like Samurai were forbidden from travelling from non-lawful companions. But yes it was based on Shaolin monks. Overtime and editions it's gotten muddier with eastern monks mixed up with western monks. I think 3rd edition was probably the worst in this regard with prestige classes like the Sacred Fist combining monks with clerics.

In the case of Ilmater, the god himself is a monk and his favored weapon is unarmed strikes. And yes, the open hand monks[forgottenrealms.fandom.com] are a martial order of unarmed monks in D&D. However, the Monks of the Yellow Rose[forgottenrealms.fandom.com] are the order of monks devoted to Ilmater. Even among those monks, they have a mixture of martial artists, clerics and archivists. I guess it's kind of a western monastery with some Shaolin monks mulling about.

I assume they picked "open hand" for the monastery because it combines an image of charity with Ilmater's holy symbol of two bound hands. That said, the bound hand monastery would have been a better name for an Ilmateri refuge. I think this is a case of the authors not knowing that name they chose was affiliated with something else in FR.

Yes, I agree. Thanks for the background info!