Are monks going to be trash?

[BlaZeR]

Will monks play exactly like they do in 5.e were almost every subclass, except for the way of mercy, Use ki for practically everything. Wotc do not know how to make a good monk subclass.

[Oku]

引用自 BlaZeR：

引用自 Stock Image Snake：

I've never DMed for anybody who has ever needed extra Ki points for their Monk and in most cases the Monk player ends up being the one the rest of the party builds around because they become the resident god killer. If you need that, you're playing Monk badly. VERY badly.

really? so before tashas was released how did you compensate for the four elements monk with ki? did you make spells cost less ki? or did you simply just say "nah i wont help you because im a terrible dm"

I always offer to change things to make things easier on my players, they just have to tell me they need assistance with something. Nobody has ever asked me to buff any form of Monk for them since 5E released. I also DMed a lot for special needs young adults, several of which loved Monk because their parents had them do martial arts classes when they were younger, and even those students, who oftentimes had cognitive disorders or required extra accommodations for accessibility's sake, still ended up being some of the most powerful player characters in our sessions and never needed any help to play monk and have it be powerful.

So I really don't see any excuse as to why neurotypical adults can't do the same thing.

[RealCabbage]

引用自 RealDealBreaker：

引用自 BlaZeR：

Will monks play exactly like they do in 5.e were almost every subclass, except for the way of mercy, Use ki for practically everything. Wotc do not know how to make a good monk subclass.

That's a matter of perspective, but the 5e monk (with the exception of the elements subclass) is very well designed. Also, Ki is hardly a limiting factor at all since it comes back on short rests.
Here is a list of the monk ♥♥♥♥ that does not use Ki:
- Actually effective unarmed attacks (which even become considered magical for overcoming resistance at 6th level)
- The bonus action attack from the martial arts feature
- move faster/further in a turn (+10 movement at 2nd level, eventually scales up to +30 at 18th level
- Deflecting a missile (throwing it back requires 1 Ki, but deflecting it is just a reaction that no other class can do)
- Reducing fall damage by 5 times your monk level
- evasion (take no damage on a successful dex save, half damage on a fail)
- immunity to charm/frightened (7th level)
- immunity to disease/poison (10th level)
- understand all languages and the ability to speak with any creature that knows at least one language (free, no spell slot, no ki, nothing)
- proficiency in ALL saving throws (14th level)
- Age has no effect on your effectiveness until you would otherwise just die (minor but potentially useful)
- No longer need to eat or drink

And that's just the base monk. Nearly every subclass gives something that doesn't require ki at all.

There is almost nothing a monk can do that another class cannot do better

-The unarmed attacks and the bonus attack struggle to maintain comparable damage output with almost any other melee class (outside of Ranger). At 6th level it becomes magical, but other melee classes will already have magical weapons by 5th level

-The Rogue can move 60 feet in a turn by level 2, and still do damage...

-Deflecting a missile is needed to prevent the monk from dying, due to its pitiful health pool, from massed ranged attacks lol

-evasion (take no damage on a successful dex save, half damage on a fail). Just play a rogue

-Great, a class ability which is worse than a level 1 spell (Feather Fall)

-Immunity to charm/frighten is handy, but hardly a reason to choose the class

-Immunity to disease and poison, by level 10 you will have enough gold to make disease and poison a moot point due to potions and scrolls

- understand all languages and the ability to speak with any creature that knows at least one language. Great you only need to wait until level 13.

- proficiency in ALL saving throws (14th level). A good ability, but all classes should be getting something like this by level 14

- Age has no effect on your effectiveness until you would otherwise just die (minor but potentially useful), and no longer need to eat or drink. Both unlock at level 15, and are minor problems by this level. Most PCs are not going to be worrying about food at this point.

Monk sucks comparable to other classes. Just play a rogue if you want stealth and mobility.

[Amafrey]

引用自 BlaZeR：

point is. monks should feel as powerful as everybody else. im currently playing a monk in a current campaign and i feel weak compared to the 7 other players.

It sounds like there is to many cooks in the kitchen haha. 8 player party is HUGE imo. If you want more control over your character's destiny, you need a smaller party so that you can show your prowess and determination in your plot.

Ask your DM for a 2-3 player game, those feel the best to me, just a suggestion though

[RealDealBreaker]

引用自 RealCabbage：

引用自 RealDealBreaker：

That's a matter of perspective, but the 5e monk (with the exception of the elements subclass) is very well designed. Also, Ki is hardly a limiting factor at all since it comes back on short rests.
Here is a list of the monk ♥♥♥♥ that does not use Ki:
- Actually effective unarmed attacks (which even become considered magical for overcoming resistance at 6th level)
- The bonus action attack from the martial arts feature
- move faster/further in a turn (+10 movement at 2nd level, eventually scales up to +30 at 18th level
- Deflecting a missile (throwing it back requires 1 Ki, but deflecting it is just a reaction that no other class can do)
- Reducing fall damage by 5 times your monk level
- evasion (take no damage on a successful dex save, half damage on a fail)
- immunity to charm/frightened (7th level)
- immunity to disease/poison (10th level)
- understand all languages and the ability to speak with any creature that knows at least one language (free, no spell slot, no ki, nothing)
- proficiency in ALL saving throws (14th level)
- Age has no effect on your effectiveness until you would otherwise just die (minor but potentially useful)
- No longer need to eat or drink

And that's just the base monk. Nearly every subclass gives something that doesn't require ki at all.

There is almost nothing a monk can do that another class cannot do better

-The unarmed attacks and the bonus attack struggle to maintain comparable damage output with almost any other melee class (outside of Ranger). At 6th level it becomes magical, but other melee classes will already have magical weapons by 5th level

-The Rogue can move 60 feet in a turn by level 2...

-Deflecting a missile is needed to prevent the monk from dying, due to its pitiful health pool, from massed ranged attacks lol

-evasion (take no damage on a successful dex save, half damage on a fail). Just play a rogue

-Great, a class ability which is worse than a level 1 spell (Feather Fall)

-Immunity to charm/frighten is handy, but hardly a reason to choose the class

-Immunity to disease and poison, by level 10 you will have enough gold to make disease and poison a moot point due to potions and scrolls

- understand all languages and the ability to speak with any creature that knows at least one language. Great you only need to wait until level 13.

- proficiency in ALL saving throws (14th level). A good ability, but all classes should be getting something like this by level 14

- Age has no effect on your effectiveness until you would otherwise just die (minor but potentially useful), and no longer need to eat or drink. Both unlock at level 15, and are minor problems by this level. Most PCs are not going to be worrying about food at this point.

Monk sucks comparable to other classes. Just play a rogue if you want stealth and mobility.

- Technically you can't assume that you will always have a magic item let alone a magic weapon at any level in 5e. But there is also nothing stopping a monk from also having a magic weapon.
- technically every class can move 60 feet in a round from level 1 with the dash action. Rogue can do so as a bonus action. Monk can do it without expending a single resource at later levels and can also bonus action (+1Ki) dash. Fact is no other class is as mobile as a monk without expending a resource.
- Monk's pitiful health pool? You mean the same pitiful health pool as rogue? Rogues (even melee rogues) survive just fine with out deflect missile when played appropriately (avoid the center of combat and getting locked down). Monks and melee rogues have similar tactics in that regard. Deflect missile is, like I said, something no other class can do and is, again like I said, a feature that doesn't rely on Ki.
- evasion: its a feature that few classes get, is a great feature, and again is one that doesn't use ki (i.e., the context of my original comment).
- slow fall is less effective than feather fall but feather fall uses a spell slot and slow fall doesn't. Besides, feather fall is rarely prepared unless the situation clearly suggests a jump/fall from height is likely.
- immunity to various conditions: again, the context of my comment was abilities that do not rely on ki. And sure, many times parties will have lots of gold to buy potions or scrolls, but they aren't always available in the moment they are needed and immunity is better than 'can be cured'. Your overarching argument is other classes do it better, but only the paladin (as far as classes go) gets a baseline class feature granting immunity to some these conditions.
- languages/speak with anything that knows a language: "gotta wait until level 13" and to that I say every other class has to wait..................... forever (or cast a spell and thus use a resource that could have been used elsewhere; i.e., pay an opportunity cost)
- saving throws: You can argue that all classes should get this, but the fact is they don't and only a few other classes even gain a single additional save proficient.
- food/water: yeah, like I said not a huge benefit but a benefit none the less and doesn't rely on ki.
-age: yep, certainly an edge case but getting magically aged to 90 as human would be quite detrimental to any other physically based class (even though 5e doesn't have hardcoded rules for age effects, but I suspect most DMs would rule that a 90 year old human fighter would be less effective in combat in some way - rulings not rules)

- "Just play a rogue if you want stealth and mobility": I agree... if I am primarily or solely interested in stealth/mobility. But for some character concepts the monk will fit much better thematically and the other features of the monk will offer versatility that rogue doesn't. If I wanted to just have the highest consistent melee based DPR then I'd probably start by looking at some of the barbarian and fighter sub-classes. If I wanted to have access to a ton of spells then I'd go wizard. The wonderful thing about d&d is you can play different characters when you have different concepts (gasp).

[RealCabbage]

引用自 RealDealBreaker：

引用自 RealCabbage：

There is almost nothing a monk can do that another class cannot do better

-The unarmed attacks and the bonus attack struggle to maintain comparable damage output with almost any other melee class (outside of Ranger). At 6th level it becomes magical, but other melee classes will already have magical weapons by 5th level

-The Rogue can move 60 feet in a turn by level 2...

-Deflecting a missile is needed to prevent the monk from dying, due to its pitiful health pool, from massed ranged attacks lol

-evasion (take no damage on a successful dex save, half damage on a fail). Just play a rogue

-Great, a class ability which is worse than a level 1 spell (Feather Fall)

-Immunity to charm/frighten is handy, but hardly a reason to choose the class

-Immunity to disease and poison, by level 10 you will have enough gold to make disease and poison a moot point due to potions and scrolls

- understand all languages and the ability to speak with any creature that knows at least one language. Great you only need to wait until level 13.

- proficiency in ALL saving throws (14th level). A good ability, but all classes should be getting something like this by level 14

- Age has no effect on your effectiveness until you would otherwise just die (minor but potentially useful), and no longer need to eat or drink. Both unlock at level 15, and are minor problems by this level. Most PCs are not going to be worrying about food at this point.

Monk sucks comparable to other classes. Just play a rogue if you want stealth and mobility.

- Technically you can't assume that you will always have a magic item let alone a magic weapon at any level in 5e. But there is also nothing stopping a monk from also having a magic weapon.
- technically every class can move 60 feet in a round from level 1 with the dash action. Rogue can do so as a bonus action. Monk can do it without expending a single resource at later levels and can also bonus action (+1Ki) dash. Fact is no other class is as mobile as a monk without expending a resource.
- Monk's pitiful health pool? You mean the same pitiful health pool as rogue? Rogues (even melee rogues) survive just fine with out deflect missile when played appropriately (avoid the center of combat and getting locked down). Monks and melee rogues have similar tactics in that regard. Deflect missile is, like I said, something no other class can do and is, again like I said, a feature that doesn't rely on Ki.
- evasion: its a feature that few classes get, is a great feature, and again is one that doesn't use ki (i.e., the context of my original comment).
- slow fall is less effective than feather fall but feather fall uses a spell slot and slow fall doesn't. Besides, feather fall is rarely prepared unless the situation clearly suggests a jump/fall from height is likely.
- immunity to various conditions: again, the context of my comment was abilities that do not rely on ki. And sure, many times parties will have lots of gold to buy potions or scrolls, but they aren't always available in the moment they are needed and immunity is better than 'can be cured'. Your overarching argument is other classes do it better, but only the paladin (as far as classes go) gets a baseline class feature granting immunity to some these conditions.
- languages/speak with anything that knows a language: "gotta wait until level 13" and to that I say every other class has to wait..................... forever (or cast a spell and thus use a resource that could have been used elsewhere; i.e., pay an opportunity cost)
- saving throws: You can argue that all classes should get this, but the fact is they don't and only a few other classes even gain a single additional save proficient.
- food/water: yeah, like I said not a huge benefit but a benefit none the less and doesn't rely on ki.
-age: yep, certainly an edge case but getting magically aged to 90 as human would be quite detrimental to any other physically based class (even though 5e doesn't have hardcoded rules for age effects, but I suspect most DMs would rule that a 90 year old human fighter would be less effective in combat in some way - rulings not rules)

- "Just play a rogue if you want stealth and mobility": I agree... if I am primarily or solely interested in stealth/mobility. But for some character concepts the monk will fit much better thematically and the other features of the monk will offer versatility that rogue doesn't. If I wanted to just have the highest consistent melee based DPR then I'd probably start by looking at some of the barbarian and fighter sub-classes. If I wanted to have access to a ton of spells then I'd go wizard. The wonderful thing about d&d is you can play different characters when you have different concepts (gasp).

-You can totally assume you will have a magic weapon by level 5. What games are you playing where a melee character doesnt have access to a magic weapon by then? Yes the monk can have a magic weapon by level 5 too, but its melee attacks will still be mundane. Meaning its damage will lag against a resistant opponent

- I said a rogue can move 60 feet and still attack. It will still have better mobility and damage output than a monk of the same level, until level 14 (or 10 if the monk is wood elf). At which point the rogue still has better damage, all for a bonus action. Who care is the monk is more mobile without spending a resource. More mobile to do what? Do crappy damage. If really need mobility the rogue can double dash

- Right, so just play a rogue, since rogue will do better damage. And be able to hide, and use reactions to halve any damage that make it past a disadvantaged attack roll.

-Feather all is rarely prepared? You just play with unimaginative people. Also, feather fall scrolls will do the same thing for cheap, for, likely, the whole party.

-right, so an ability that is made redundant by easy to acquire items and or spells. What DM isn't going to give his party the chance to purchase these items in advance? Wow, what a strong argument for monk this is turning out to be /s

-Or PCs can just learn new languages in their downtime. What an awesome level 13 ability (lol)

-Cool, a class ability which affects age; when dnd doesnt even have penalties for old age. And you can just pay gold to rejuvenate yourself if its that big of a deal (You're level 15 by then, you will have plenty)

You can play a sub-optimal class with a crappy theme if you want, and bog down gameplay. The monk lacks the versatility of a rogue and a couple of gold pieces. But like I said most other classes can do anything a monk can do, but better. - monk sucks

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I just hope they add Drunken Master.

[Noirbard]

In response to the earlier comment that monks have "free stuns" you really have to look at that from a character building standpoint. A monk needs to build Dex and WIS on top of CON to be able to pull that move off with any consistency. CON saves are super easy for enemies (I've used thunderwave in game enough to come to this conclusion) because most enemies have that stat. Moreover, any enemy that's worth stunning (i.e. it's strong enough that using a Ki point to disable is more effective than outright killing it.) means getting close enough to that creature to attempt a stunning strike. If it succeds it's save, and they often will, you're in big trouble.

The reason to be concened with monk imo is that the limitations of being a video game (e.g. the fact that jumping takes up the same bonus actions that you'll want to use on your ki abilities, the lack of grappling, and the many interesting sorts of role-played cool moments that make this class so rewarding are hard to imagine without a live DM. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the class which has so much fun flavor the more creative you are with it.

[Aldain]

引用自 pandariuskairos：

I just hope they add Drunken Master.

Only if it gains status buffs from drinking liquor and deals bonus damage when throwing bottles of liquor at enemies.

[Dragon Master]

I really, really want to play a monk.

And if anyone thinks monks are trash in D&D 5E, Marisha's monk, Beau, completely tore apart Vox Machina in Critical Role's pvp of the Mighty Nein vs Vox Machina

[RealCabbage]

引用自 Dragon Master：

I really, really want to play a monk.

And if anyone thinks monks are trash in D&D 5E, Marisha's monk, Beau, completely tore apart Vox Machina in Critical Role's pvp of the Mighty Nein vs Vox Machina

Critical Role is scripted

[Dragon Master]

引用自 RealCabbage：

引用自 Dragon Master：

I really, really want to play a monk.

And if anyone thinks monks are trash in D&D 5E, Marisha's monk, Beau, completely tore apart Vox Machina in Critical Role's pvp of the Mighty Nein vs Vox Machina

Critical Role is scripted

Uh huh. That is a common complaint that has never, ever been verified.

Since you are the biggest proponent of monks being trash in this thread it makes perfect sense you would seek to discredit a live D&D game that disproves your assertion.

[Dragon Master]

引用自 RealCabbage：

引用自 Dragon Master：

Uh huh. That is a common complaint that has never, ever been verified.

Since you are the biggest proponent of monks being trash in this thread it makes perfect sense you would seek to discredit a live D&D game that disproves your assertion.

Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Oh? Moving to ad homonyms now?

I point out that I like monks and that Marisha's monk did awesome stuff in a live D&D game, you discredit the show as scripted, then when I mention that since you have a reason to discredit the show because it disproved your assertion you now imply I have a mental disorder.

Right, that gives me ample reason to take your arguments seriously. (sarcasm)

I have no reason to take any argument that you make seriously from here on out now.

[RealCabbage]

引用自 Dragon Master：

引用自 RealCabbage：

Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

Oh? Moving to ad homonyms now?

I point out that I like monks and that Marisha's monk did awesome stuff in a live D&D game, you discredit the show as scripted, then when I mention that since you have a reason to discredit the show because it disproved your assertion you now imply I have a mental disorder.

Right, that gives me ample reason to take your arguments seriously. (sarcasm)

I have no reason to take any argument that you make seriously from here on out now.

Believe what you want. I explained plenty of rational shortcomings of the monk, from a mechanical perspective. You chimed in saying your favorite YouTube show (full of actors and totally not scripted) proved this all wrong because...... they did "awesome stuff"?

So I called you delusional since you lacked a real argument

[Sir Texas Sir]

引用自 Amafrey：

引用自 BlaZeR：

point is. monks should feel as powerful as everybody else. im currently playing a monk in a current campaign and i feel weak compared to the 7 other players.

It sounds like there is to many cooks in the kitchen haha. 8 player party is HUGE imo. If you want more control over your character's destiny, you need a smaller party so that you can show your prowess and determination in your plot.

Ask your DM for a 2-3 player game, those feel the best to me, just a suggestion though

While I haven't DM in ages on average it was always 4-6 players. Though one time on base I ran a 15 player game that was made up of two parties. By the end of the weekend we had it down to 6-7 alive and they joined forces, but I also had two co-DM's. Just for the wrecked after hat weekened and finishing up the campaign a few months later I swore I'll never do that again. I'll keep to 5-6 first come first serve on game night start...lol

As for which are good and not, we have to remember this is going to be on a game so not every thing in TT will be there and they will tweek other things. I haven't seen any monk weapons yet so not even sure how they will fit in the story, but if it's a core class I'm sure we will see it eventually.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

D&D is so situational that any class can seem like it's underpowered or overpowered given the right situation.

One of the most beautiful things about BG3 is how it caters to so many different skill sets - skills and spells I don't normally see used in D&D have their place here.

I never would have thought a Trickery Cleric would be great, and yet Shadowheart is my most powerful companion (I just completed exploring in Grymforge - probably around 80% or more of the surface area of the level, with just her and my Sorcerer MC).

Social skills have a lot of use, Illusions and Enchantments have a lot of use. Spells like Speak With Dead and Speak With Animals see a lot of use.

The vast majority of D&D games do not let you use this many spells and skills to access content or bypass dangerous situations. I got all the way to Grymforge without killing any goblins, tieflings, or druids. Just a couple monsters here and there, grabbed some items I needed, and I still leveled to 4th level.

It's pretty amazing actually.

So, what does this have to do with the Monk?

Well, it means that I have no doubt that the Monk's unique set of skills and class features will find some way to shine in BG3.

I just hope they add the Drunken Master. Drunken Master is best Monk.