Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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BlaZeR Oct 19, 2021 @ 1:39pm
2
Are monks going to be trash?
Will monks play exactly like they do in 5.e were almost every subclass, except for the way of mercy, Use ki for practically everything. Wotc do not know how to make a good monk subclass.
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Showing 1-15 of 106 comments
ΕΝ Alexander Oct 19, 2021 @ 1:43pm 
Larian has shown multiple times that they will make changes to classes if they feel that they are weak or basic. They did it with Ranger, and they did it with Sorcerer. It's entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that we will see changes to Monk when it gets released.

When that does happen I fully expect the arguments of "Larian homebrewed monk REEE RAW monk at my table is awesome!" though so let's hope they don't end up removing it or reverting it back to RAW.
Mosey Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:14pm 
Might as well ask your crystal ball that see's into the future, since there is no possible answer to this that involves actual information.
Oku (Banned) Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:16pm 
"WOTC do not know how to make a good monk subclass" as though WOTC hadnt been making monk since before you were born????
Noctoculus Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:38pm 
Yes. Monks are trash.
Northern Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:47pm 
Sure, class with free stun in almost stunless system is trash.

"Monk bad" is easiest way to say "i'm bad at turn based tactics" without saying that.
RealDealBreaker Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:53pm 
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
Will monks play exactly like they do in 5.e were almost every subclass, except for the way of mercy, Use ki for practically everything. Wotc do not know how to make a good monk subclass.
That's a matter of perspective, but the 5e monk (with the exception of the elements subclass) is very well designed. Also, Ki is hardly a limiting factor at all since it comes back on short rests.
Here is a list of the monk ♥♥♥♥ that does not use Ki:
- Actually effective unarmed attacks (which even become considered magical for overcoming resistance at 6th level)
- The bonus action attack from the martial arts feature
- move faster/further in a turn (+10 movement at 2nd level, eventually scales up to +30 at 18th level
- Deflecting a missile (throwing it back requires 1 Ki, but deflecting it is just a reaction that no other class can do)
- Reducing fall damage by 5 times your monk level
- evasion (take no damage on a successful dex save, half damage on a fail)
- immunity to charm/frightened (7th level)
- immunity to disease/poison (10th level)
- understand all languages and the ability to speak with any creature that knows at least one language (free, no spell slot, no ki, nothing)
- proficiency in ALL saving throws (14th level)
- Age has no effect on your effectiveness until you would otherwise just die (minor but potentially useful)
- No longer need to eat or drink

And that's just the base monk. Nearly every subclass gives something that doesn't require ki at all.
BlaZeR Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:55pm 
Originally posted by Northern:
Sure, class with free stun in almost stunless system is trash.

"Monk bad" is easiest way to say "i'm bad at turn based tactics" without saying that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjz2L0OWkZs&ab_channel=Treantmonk%27sTemple
you should really just take 5 seconds to actually look at the monk compared to any other class. i think this guy does the best job at explaining it.
Last edited by BlaZeR; Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:55pm
RealDealBreaker Oct 19, 2021 @ 2:58pm 
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
Originally posted by Northern:
Sure, class with free stun in almost stunless system is trash.

"Monk bad" is easiest way to say "i'm bad at turn based tactics" without saying that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjz2L0OWkZs&ab_channel=Treantmonk%27sTemple
you should really just take 5 seconds to actually look at the monk compared to any other class. i think this guy does the best job at explaining it.
Treantmonk is a potato. All he cares about is min-maxing and even from that perspective he has some pretty bad takes/poor analysis.

EDIT: for example, in the video you link to, he says martial arts is a bad feature becasue "you can swing your longsword for a d10 or you can access martial arts for a d4 instead." He then later says that martial arts scales, but even from level 1 martial arts is great because (unlike other martial classes) you can swing a longsword for a d10 then use a bonus action to make a d4 attack with your fist (or foot, or head, whatever you want to call your unarmed attack). For any other class using the longsword attack as a d10 (which requires weilding it with two hands) and then make a second attack as a bonus action for d4 damage they would have to... oh wait, its impossible at best they could use the long sword one handed (d8) with the dual wielder feat and attack with another one handed weapon. This of course ONLY works in a game using feats and obviously requires taking a feat (meaning no ASI or being a variant human). Then throw in the fact martial arts scales and monks can also use ki to make more attacks or stun (for advantage on subsequent attacks) and suddenly mr. Treantmonk looks like an dolt.
Last edited by RealDealBreaker; Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:09pm
BlaZeR Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:02pm 
Originally posted by RealDealBreaker:
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjz2L0OWkZs&ab_channel=Treantmonk%27sTemple
you should really just take 5 seconds to actually look at the monk compared to any other class. i think this guy does the best job at explaining it.
Treantmonk is a potato. All he cares about is min-maxing and even from that perspective he has some pretty bad takes/poor analysis.
sounds like your pretty biased considering the way you're reacting to a guy who litterally ends his videos with "dnd is for everyone"
anyways here is another source to rebuke your claim https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/59394-strongest-and-weakest-classes-poll

point is. monks should feel as powerful as everybody else. im currently playing a monk in a current campaign and i feel weak compared to the 7 other players.
Last edited by BlaZeR; Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:04pm
RealDealBreaker Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:15pm 
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
Originally posted by RealDealBreaker:
Treantmonk is a potato. All he cares about is min-maxing and even from that perspective he has some pretty bad takes/poor analysis.
sounds like your pretty biased considering the way you're reacting to a guy who litterally ends his videos with "dnd is for everyone"
anyways here is another source to rebuke your claim https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/59394-strongest-and-weakest-classes-poll

point is. monks should feel as powerful as everybody else. im currently playing a monk in a current campaign and i feel weak compared to the 7 other players.
No more biased than you. Pointing to a poll (or ranking lists) is not evidence that a class is weak or strong. The fact is a monk, even form a min-max stand point, can be just as effective as any of the other classes. And much more importantly, monk supports a range of character concepts that simply can't exist in the game without monk.
Oku (Banned) Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:23pm 
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
Originally posted by Northern:
Sure, class with free stun in almost stunless system is trash.

"Monk bad" is easiest way to say "i'm bad at turn based tactics" without saying that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjz2L0OWkZs&ab_channel=Treantmonk%27sTemple
you should really just take 5 seconds to actually look at the monk compared to any other class. i think this guy does the best job at explaining it.

That guy really really should be taken with a grain of salt. He's trying to approach D&D from a raw numbers perspective instead of from a roleplaying perspective which is always a bad sign and at the table, people who behave that way tend to be a red flag for somebody we won't want to come back after the campaign ends, be it a DM or a player.

Monk has a ton of options and character features that make it just as effective as other classes, but with a weak start and a heavy scaling over the levels, sort of like a melee version of a wizard, who starts out being able to light some clothes on fire and can get killed by sneezing in their direction, but turns in to a walking drone strike later on.

The trick is you just have to actually roleplay your character well and use all their options and be creative with them, because if you try to focus exclusively on numbers and minmax everything, all you've done is optimize the fun out of D&D so of course a class like Monk will seem "weak", because you're not utilizing it fully.
BlaZeR Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:25pm 
Originally posted by RealDealBreaker:
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
sounds like your pretty biased considering the way you're reacting to a guy who litterally ends his videos with "dnd is for everyone"
anyways here is another source to rebuke your claim https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/59394-strongest-and-weakest-classes-poll

point is. monks should feel as powerful as everybody else. im currently playing a monk in a current campaign and i feel weak compared to the 7 other players.
No more biased than you. Pointing to a poll (or ranking lists) is not evidence that a class is weak or strong. The fact is a monk, even form a min-max stand point, can be just as effective as any of the other classes. And much more importantly, monk supports a range of character concepts that simply can't exist in the game without monk.
so even when well over 2000 people say monk is rated as the second to worst class. you still have the mindset of "oh well just because they dont think what i think they're wrong". you deny polls as suffciant evidence. you have no argument here
Last edited by BlaZeR; Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:35pm
Runic Tunic Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:35pm 
As some others have said, no way of really knowing right now. I personally hope they just make them enjoyable, regardless of what that entails. I personally enjoy the idea and themes of the monk class, but their quality varies so much from game to game and system to system. Some are amazing, some are meh, and some are great when it comes to numbers but boring when it comes to implementation.

Just have to wait and see how Larian decides to tackle it.
Oku (Banned) Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:37pm 
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
Originally posted by RealDealBreaker:
No more biased than you. Pointing to a poll (or ranking lists) is not evidence that a class is weak or strong. The fact is a monk, even form a min-max stand point, can be just as effective as any of the other classes. And much more importantly, monk supports a range of character concepts that simply can't exist in the game without monk.
so even when well over 2000 people say monk is rated as the second to worst class. you still have the mindset of "oh well just because they dont think what i think they're wrong".

I would say that's a fallacious appeal to majority if it wasn't for the fact that's a tiny, TINY sample size compared the millions of people who play D&D.
RealDealBreaker Oct 19, 2021 @ 3:44pm 
Originally posted by BlaZeR:
Originally posted by RealDealBreaker:
No more biased than you. Pointing to a poll (or ranking lists) is not evidence that a class is weak or strong. The fact is a monk, even form a min-max stand point, can be just as effective as any of the other classes. And much more importantly, monk supports a range of character concepts that simply can't exist in the game without monk.
so even when well over 2000 people say monk is rated as the second to worst class. you still have the mindset of "oh well just because they dont think what i think they're wrong".
A poll literally does nothing to tell you about how strong a class is. 1) people may broadly be misunderstanding how to use the class effectively. 2) people may be looking at the classes through a single lens (e.g., how much damage can it deal), and 3) many of the 'criticisms' mention monks as not fitting well thematically with the pseudo-medieval europe tone that d&d tends to adopt (which I agree, monks do stick out a bit thematically) but fitting/not fitting thematically does not have any bearing on effectiveness.

Oh, and these polls don't have any indication of the margin between each classes strength/effectiveness and the next one's strength/effectiveness. So even if people all were making a genuine effort to rank the classes entirely on mechanics and were trying their best to look at the classes holistically (as opposed to looking at a single dimension like DPR), there is no indicate whether monk is 1% worse than the next class (which I think most people would say is unlikely to be a meaningful difference) or 50% worse.

Look, you and others clearly don't like monk. But it is far from being in the ♥♥♥♥♥ like you are trying to suggest. And besides the game is about far more than just power balance and even if it was 'power' is highly context dependant (e.g., a barbarian is great in a melee situation but is going to be a lot less useful against a flying enemy or a caster on the opposite side of a chasm)
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Date Posted: Oct 19, 2021 @ 1:39pm
Posts: 106