Spell Casters

[Farealm]

So several play-throughs since EA release and I wonder if there is -aside RP reasons- anyway u dont have a wizard in your company of 4? Can learn EVERY spell which makes him a swiss-army knife, depending on race u can have several buffs -hell even armor as a gith- and fits most combos of classes

[Brady4444]

One of my biases that I am trying to get over is that 2nd edition (where I started gaming) had wizards being the 'real' magic users with variations off of that having minor bonuses for giving up certain schools of magic. In the long run, it was better to be a mage in 2nd edition in most games I played, while sorceror was a cheap knockoff mage back then.

5th edition seems to have changed that paradigm quite a bit. And with the way BG3 handles resting (short rest being a click of a button) it makes classes that regain their powers through short rest much stronger than they initially appear.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Brady4444:

One of my biases that I am trying to get over is that 2nd edition (where I started gaming) had wizards being the 'real' magic users with variations off of that having minor bonuses for giving up certain schools of magic. In the long run, it was better to be a mage in 2nd edition in most games I played, while sorceror was a cheap knockoff mage back then.

5th edition seems to have changed that paradigm quite a bit. And with the way BG3 handles resting (short rest being a click of a button) it makes classes that regain their powers through short rest much stronger than they initially appear.

It depends - a Warlock in BG3 can ONLY cast two spells per battle, even if they are both upcast to the maximum level, once cast they are out of ammo. A Wizard has so many more spell slots, they can adapt on the fly from one round to the next, switching up which spells they use to fit the situation.

Sorcery is where it's at though, as metamagic really gives you a lot more options.

The Sorlock is one of my favorite classes, as I use Invocations to get at-will free casts (which makes up for fewer spells slots), and metamagic to boost the Warlock's already formidable spells. Coffeelocking is just the icing on top of an already delicious cake. Sorlock's are nuts. Banana pants on head n-u-t-s nuts.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by Brady4444:

5th edition seems to have changed that paradigm quite a bit. And with the way BG3 handles resting (short rest being a click of a button) it makes classes that regain their powers through short rest much stronger than they initially appear.

A thing to keep in mind is that we don't know how much time pressure the game will actually have when released so you might not be able to just rest whenever you want (though the "it's magically being suppressed so you're fine" revelation you get suggests you won't have any time pressure at all...).

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

It depends - a Warlock in BG3 can ONLY cast two spells per battle, even if they are both upcast to the maximum level, once cast they are out of ammo. A Wizard has so many more spell slots, they can adapt on the fly from one round to the next, switching up which spells they use to fit the situation.

Except you're wrong once again.

Warlock gets 2 spell slots, sure, but they get infinite EI which are functionally level 1-3 spells depending on the invocation (I say "functionally", but most of the EI's are literally just preexisting spells so functionally isn't even really correct).

So they have more casting power than the Wiz on any timescale.


What is going on is that you're so spoiled by how powerful other casters are compared to wiz you no longer even recognise half of the advantages they have. Which is why you focus on coffeelock which is ridiculous when just basic warlock itself is ridiculous compared to just wiz.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Gracey Face:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

It depends - a Warlock in BG3 can ONLY cast two spells per battle, even if they are both upcast to the maximum level, once cast they are out of ammo. A Wizard has so many more spell slots, they can adapt on the fly from one round to the next, switching up which spells they use to fit the situation.

Except you're wrong once again.

Warlock gets 2 spell slots, sure, but they get infinite EI which are functionally level 1-3 spells depending on the invocation (I say "functionally", but most of the EI's are literally just preexisting spells so functionally isn't even really correct).

So they have more casting power than the Wiz on any timescale.

What is going on is that you're so spoiled by how powerful other casters are compared to wiz you no longer even recognise half of the advantages they have. Which is why you focus on coffeelock which is ridiculous when just basic warlock itself is ridiculous compared to just wiz.

First of all, I'm not "wrong", because I literally mention at-will Invocation spells:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

The Sorlock is one of my favorite classes, as I use Invocations to get at-will free casts (which makes up for fewer spells slots), and metamagic to boost the Warlock's already formidable spells. Coffeelocking is just the icing on top of an already delicious cake. Sorlock's are nuts. Banana pants on head n-u-t-s nuts.

But I'd also point out that most of those at-will Invocations are rarely applicable to combat, or don't really offer any more "free" spells during combat beyond the first casting of them (for example, Armor of Shadows essentially gives you one free spell slot, but you aren't going to use it over and over again in battle, because you cast it once and it lasts until next long rest - unless of course, you're wicked like I am and you multiclass with Abjuration Wizard so you can re-up your Ward for free every turn).

Many Invocations just give you a spell you'd not normally get access to, but you still have to spend a spell slot to cast them, while a few actually give you free, infinite casts, and most of those don't deal damage or usually aid directly in battle (beyond prep, like Armor of Shadows). There are some exceptions, though, (and some of these happen to be favorite Invocations). Ascendant Step, for example, let's you levitate above the battlefield like some kind of apocalyptic hell bringer, unleashing Eldritch Blasts from the sky. This happens to be one of my favorite Invocations, too.

In any case, you won't find anything like a direct damage spell in the Invocations - no Magic Missile, no Fireball, no Scorching Ray.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

First of all, I'm not "wrong".

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

It depends - a Warlock in BG3 can ONLY cast two spells per battle, even if they are both upcast to the maximum level, once cast they are out of ammo.

So about that...

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Context is important - that statement is clearly referring to casting spells in combat - i.e., damaging spells like Scorching Ray.

Sure, at-will casts are great because they can give you some extra buffing or save a spell slot that you might otherwise use, so that you still have that spell slot once you are in battle.

But the point is that at-will casts are, by design, almost exclusively relegated to utility and out of combat casts. There are some exceptions, and if you count buffs that prep you for combat (like Armour of Shadows), then they are combat-relevant, but you aren't getting "infinite" casts during combat (because spells like Mage Armor typically aren't useful for casting over and over again, they are once and done spells).

There aren't actually many infinite, at-will spells that are directly applicable to combat. The closest one I can think off the top of my head is Ascendant Step, which let's you levitate (thus put yourself out of range of melee attackers), and maybe one or two others, but there aren't many.

Most of them are spells like Disguise Self, which are social spells, or other utility spells that you might use more out of combat than in.

But I already explained all this, you really need to keep up with the convo.

[Gracey Face]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

Context is important - that statement is clearly referring to casting spells in combat - i.e., damaging spells like Scorching Ray.

Context doesn't change that you are wrong. You claimed that because warlock has fewer spell slots he has less casting capacity in a single fight in order to offset his increased casting capacity over time.

The way this is wrong is that warlock has what would be lvl 1-3 spells for a wiz as cantrips, so does not need to expend slots while a wiz would. As such wiz has lower casting capacity even in individual fights.

It is that simple.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Gracey Face:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

Context is important - that statement is clearly referring to casting spells in combat - i.e., damaging spells like Scorching Ray.

Context doesn't change that you are wrong. You claimed that because warlock has fewer spell slots he has less casting capacity in a single fight in order to offset his increased casting capacity over time.

The way this is wrong is that warlock has what would be lvl 1-3 spells for a wiz as cantrips, so does not need to expend slots while a wiz would. As such wiz has lower casting capacity even in individual fights.

It is that simple.

Almost none of the infinite at-will Invocations are applicable in combat. A Warlock is still limited to their very small number of spell slots when it comes to battle.

I am not wrong.

A Wizard can cast more than double the number of spells a Warlock can cast in each fight if they choose. A Warlock cannot.

Casting Mage Armor or Disguise Self over and over again in a fight does literally nothing for you.

You have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm going back to ignoring you.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

So, here's the full list of Warlock Invocations:

http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/warlock:eldritch-invocations

And here are the at-will casts:

Armor of Shadows

You can cast Mage Armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.

Ascendant Step

Prerequisite: 9th level
You can cast Levitate on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.

Beast Speech

You can cast Speak with Animals at will, without expending a spell slot.

Chains of Carceri

Prerequisite: 15th level, Pact of the Chain feature
You can cast Hold Monster at will – targeting a celestial, fiend, or elemental – without expending a spell slot or material components. You must finish a long rest before you can use this invocation on the same creature again. {Note: While you must take a long rest to use this spell on the same creature twice, you can cast it against a different creature as many times as you wish, which is why I'm including it, and this may be the best example of at-will spells that CAN be used over and over in combat....as long as you are fighting humanoids, and not some other kind of monster, so it has niche applicability}

Devil's Sight

You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet. {Note: while this technically doesn't require you to 'cast' anything, it's effectively unlimited Darkvision, which is a spell, so I include it}

Eldritch Sight

You can cast Detect Magic at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.

Far Scribe

Prerequisite: 5th level, Pact of the Tome feature
A new page appears in your Book of Shadows. With your permission, a creature can use its action to write its name on that page, which can contain a number of names equal to your proficiency bonus.

You can cast the Sending spell, targeting a creature whose name is on the page, without using a spell slot and without using material components. To do so, you must write the message on the page. The target hears the message in their mind, and if the target replies, their message appears on the page, rather than in your mind. The writing disappears after 1 minute.

As an action, you can magically erase a name on the page by touching it.

Fiendish Vigor

You can cast False Life on yourself at will as a 1st-level spell, without expending a spell slot or material components.

Mask of Many Faces

You can cast Disguise Self at will, without expending a spell slot.

Master of Myriad Forms

Prerequisite: 15th level
You can cast Alter Self at will, without expending a spell slot.

Misty Visions

You can cast Silent Image at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.

One with Shadows

Prerequisite: 5th level
When you are in an area of dim light or darkness, you can use your action to become invisible until you move or take an action or a reaction. {Note: once again, not technically a spell, but fills the same purpose - it's free Invisibility, with limitations}

Otherworldly Leap

Prerequisite: 9th level
You can cast Jump at will, without expending a spell slot.

Shroud of Shadow

Prerequisite: 15th level
You can cast Invisibility at will, without expending a spell slot.

Visions of Distant Realms

Prerequisite: 15th level
You can cast Arcane Eye at will, without expending a spell slot.

Whispers of the Grave

Prerequisite: 9th level
You can cast Speak with Dead at will, without expending a spell slot.

For a grand total of 16 at-will Invocations (and we played loose and fast with some that don't technically give "free casts", but essentially act the same).

Of these 16, and I'll be generous here, only 8 are applicable to combat at all (Armor of Shadows, Ascendant Step, Chains of Carceri, Devil's Sight, Fiendish Vigor, One With Shadows, Otherworldly Leap, Shroud of Shadow).

Two of those 8 are once-and-done buffs - Armor of Shadows, Otherworldly Leap.

Two of them (One With Shadows, Shroud of Shadow) are situational and hard to pull off every round (you have to set it up just so, and you have to spend your action to do it, so you're not attacking that round) and can be countered (True Sight, etc.), nor do they deal any damage. Also, Shroud of Shadow has a level requirement of 15, so we'll never see it in BG3.

One of them (Devil's Sight) is used during combat (and not only for the Darkvision, but also to hide in a Darkness spell), but doesn't require casting, it's just an innate ability.

Ascendant Step is probably only cast once per battle, but if you lose concentration on it, then sure, you could just recast it immediately, so this one counts.

Chains of Carceri and Fiendish Vigor are the ONLY two Eldritch Invocations that you are likely to use over and over again in a fight. Chains of Carceri is great, but will only work on humanoid enemies, so that leaves Fiendish Vigor as the ONLY Eldritch Invocation which has universal applicability during combat, as a means of refreshing your health. It also has a level requirement of 15, so it won't be in BG3.

Unfortunately, Fiendish Vigor doesn't scale very well. You're only ever going to get a couple of temp hp out of it (It works as a 1st level spell, and doesn't scale up as you level...so it becomes pointless by level 5).

[stimpatch]

Originally posted by Minnzy:

Wait wait wait wait... EVERY spell? Like, DIVINE spells as well?

Yes. As in, if you find a scroll of Flame Blade a Wizard can "learn" the scroll and it to his or her list of daily spells.

[Rhapsody]

I have a feeling the system is just not finished yet, there's a lot of inconsistencies with the current spell learning interface and other elements. For example, when leveling up Gale, it's still possible to "learn" spells which he already knows from scrolls?

[kbot]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

The other spellcasters have their own things going on beyond their spell lists.

Yeah, just like wizards have other things going on beyond their spell lists.
They just have everybody else's spell list, too.

[「AMOEBA」]

Basically you can have a toolkit with Wizard and not much else, or a specialized caster with complementary abilities as Warlock / Sorcerer / Cleric.

Just depends what you favor

[kbot]

Originally posted by 「MARS ARGO」:

Basically you can have a toolkit with Wizard and not much else, or a specialized caster with complementary abilities as Warlock / Sorcerer / Cleric.

Just depends what you favor

That would be great if the complementary abilities as Warlock / Sorcerer / Cleric et al wasn't equal to, or lesser than, the 'not much else' of wizards' smaller school features.

Take druids of the land for an egregious example: they are the 'wizards' of druids, with a level two feature that is essentially wizard's arcane recovery and a bonus spell list that, like clerics, gives them the benefit over wizards in 5e (table top) of having divine spells AND a curated list of arcane (and cleric) spells they do not normally have access to as their circle (sub-class) feature.

Except with wizards being able to learn the entire druid (and cleric) spell list, you might as well delete that feature (the entire point of their circle, their subclass).

This isn't so painfully obvious to people I think, since we're at level 4, and the all star wizard schools (divination) aren't in or high enough (abjuration) and we don't have level 5+ spell lists.

[xposethedarkside]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Kairos:

The Sorlock is one of my favorite classes, as I use Invocations to get at-will free casts (which makes up for fewer spells slots), and metamagic to boost the Warlock's already formidable spells. Coffeelocking is just the icing on top of an already delicious cake. Sorlock's are nuts. Banana pants on head n-u-t-s nuts.

Could you explain what a "coffeelock" is? I've never heard that one before. Sorlock is pretty self explanatory sounding, so I get that one. But what's a coffeelock? A warlock with a caffeine habit?