Dual wielding hand crossbows

[NotMisty]

Apparently there's hand crossbows in the underdark, am I able to wield both as a ranger? How exactly would that work?

[PirateMouse]

Alealexi님이 먼저 게시:

lyonesse2님이 먼저 게시:

1. Does that mean it's possible to use the hand crossbow as an offhand weapon every round when your main weapon is a one-handed melee weapon, e.g. rapier in your main hand and hand crossbow as offhand?

2. Or would wielding another weapon still prevent you from reloading the crossbow (since technically both hands would be "full")?

1. Yes you can use it but...

2. You would not be able to use you hand crossbow again until you drop your melee weapon. You can't load a bolt if you don't have a free hand.

This is exactly correct.

Basically, unless you have some alternate way to reload the crossbow or some reason that you don't need to, it's not going to work. And even if it did work, it would probably be suboptimal as there's really no synergy between the two weapons that makes them work together more effectively than (or for that matter even AS effectively as) just using one or the other separately.

[lyonesse2]

KittyHat님이 먼저 게시:

Alealexi님이 먼저 게시:

1. Yes you can use it but...

2. You would not be able to use you hand crossbow again until you drop your melee weapon. You can't load a bolt if you don't have a free hand.

This is exactly correct.

Basically, unless you have some alternate way to reload the crossbow or some reason that you don't need to, it's not going to work. And even if it did work, it would probably be suboptimal as there's really no synergy between the two weapons that makes them work together more effectively than (or for that matter even AS effectively as) just using one or the other separately.

Well, for me it's all about style and looking good, so I couldn't care less about efficiency. Fortunately my DM has decided to ignore the need for a free hand to reload for hand crossbows if used as offhand weapon together with a light (or finesse) melee weapon.

Though I might try to acquire a "repeating hand crossbow" ;)

[Daiki Iranos]

Dargsy님이 먼저 게시:

Hjarl님이 먼저 게시:

In 5e you can dual wield them. BUT you cant reload any of them since that requires a free hand. Its not diablo 3 ;)

Woah. So would you have to take a couple of turns to unequip reload, requip, unequip, reload, reequip? Seems SO not worth the effort.

No you don't have to, it just means you can't use extra-attack. It's the same with other crossbows.

[TheBlueFox]

Sage advice, the weird communication with the WOTC staff, coupled with the Errata that added "You need a free hand to load ammunition" to the description of weapons with the Ammunition tag, have revealed thus:

You CAN Dual wield Hand crossbows.

Firing your hand crossbow in the main hand triggers Crossbow expert, allowing you to fire your offhand crossbow.

This is NOT two-weapon fighting, so you do get bonus damage from your "Offhand" crossbow.

After you do this, you are UNABLE to do it again until you find time to reload your offhand crossbow manually.


The source speaks about Rapier + Crossbow, but you can substitute the rapier for another hand crossbow for the same effect.

Source:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/08/31/hand-crossbow-in-one-hand-and-a-rapier-in-the-other-w-crossbow-expert-do-you-add-your-dex-mod-to-the-crossbow-shot/

[deepgreenbear]

I think two hand crossbows would be cool! You could get a 2 shot first round advantage but maybe you would have to role each turn for reload after that. 1-10 single shot 11-20 both shots? modify with dex-10? Just sounds kind of fun! Cheers!

[guard65]

You can also dual wield darts the same way you can hand crossbow. Couple throwing stars for your ninja?

From previous conversations in this stream does that mean I have run over and pick up my darts in order to use it again. ;)

[TheBlueFox]

guard65님이 먼저 게시:

You can also dual wield darts the same way you can hand crossbow. Couple throwing stars for your ninja?

From previous conversations in this stream does that mean I have run over and pick up my darts in order to use it again. ;)

Yeah, unless they're magical returning throwing weapons, you're gonna have to carry a bunch of them, or run around picking them up (You can recover half after a battle, by rules as written)

[guard65]

TheBlueFox님이 먼저 게시:

guard65님이 먼저 게시:

You can also dual wield darts the same way you can hand crossbow. Couple throwing stars for your ninja?

From previous conversations in this stream does that mean I have run over and pick up my darts in order to use it again. ;)

Yeah, unless they're magical returning throwing weapons, you're gonna have to carry a bunch of them, or run around picking them up (You can recover half after a battle, by rules as written)

I agree but the game has yo-yo darts. Always equipped and ready the next round.

[ShiroiWolf]

There are ways around it the "need a free hand still to reload". But answer tends to almost always end up being "Magic Enhancement" (i.e. the not yet included in BGIII Artificer's "Repeating Shot" Infusion removes the Reload property, and generates infinite standard ammo. You can still load it with special ammo, I.E. Silvered arrows, +X Bolts, etc etc. Does offer the option for "Shield and Hand-Crossbow builds)

Throwing weapons get around the issue by principle of throwing the weapon itself, but in standard 5e rules you're limited without feats, Fighting Style or Battle Master Maneuvers on how many weapons you can unsheath/draw/ready and use in a turn.

[Alealexi]

deepgreenbear님이 먼저 게시:

I think two hand crossbows would be cool! You could get a 2 shot first round advantage but maybe you would have to role each turn for reload after that. 1-10 single shot 11-20 both shots? modify with dex-10? Just sounds kind of fun! Cheers!

Or you could just wield one hand crossbow and take the crossbow expert feat and attack normally like a bow & get a bonus action attack with it.

[ShiroiWolf]

Alealexi님이 먼저 게시:

deepgreenbear님이 먼저 게시:

I think two hand crossbows would be cool! You could get a 2 shot first round advantage but maybe you would have to role each turn for reload after that. 1-10 single shot 11-20 both shots? modify with dex-10? Just sounds kind of fun! Cheers!

Or you could just wield one hand crossbow and take the crossbow expert feat and attack normally like a bow & get a bonus action attack with it.

Agreed,, that's pretty much what the 5e design team had in mind with that feat (Less Dual Wielding/"Crossbow-Kata"/"Equilibrium with Crossbows" so much as skillfully quick/devised a method of reloading procedure)

Plus from a crunch/meta/optimization stand point, just using the one hand crossbow is better, since that means you have your other hand free anytime you're not making an attack action.

Hand Crossbows are also not so much used for their damage (they're one of the weakest ranged options on their own), but for what they combo with.

Rogues use it in conjunction with Crossbow Expert so they can get an easy 2nd Ranged attack without the aid of things like Haste spell. This is especially important for a class which relies so heavily on maximizing the chance of scoring a Sneak Attack hit.

If you have an Artificer in the party (table top at least for now), you can apply the "Repeating Shot" Infusion to one and give it to a shield user that's also good with range weapons and built for it (Dex Fighter, Rangers). Or better yet, play a Battlesmith Artificer, wear Half-Plate w/Enhanced Defense, Shield w/ Repulsion Shield along with your Repeating Shot Hand Crossbow. Now you can have AC 22 (17 Enhanced Half-Plate +2, 3 from Replsion Shield, +2 Dex), all while staying at range and pushing back anything that gets uncomfortably close.

Oh and you can skip Crossbow Expert because you'll have your Bonus action for spells and issue action commands to your Steel Defender pet, and pick up other feats instead.

[Zangetsu]

Rallek25님이 먼저 게시:

Dargsy Wargon님이 먼저 게시:

Woah. So would you have to take a couple of turns to unequip reload, requip, unequip, reload, reequip? Seems SO not worth the effort.

There's a feat in 5e called crossbow expert where:
- you ignore the loading property of crossbows
- Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
- When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
This is on pg. 165 of the PHB.

But dual wielding hand crossbows, with crossbow expert, and sharpshooter on a fighter is one of the most OP builds you can make in 5e.

Ammunition property:

You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged Attack only if you have Ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you Attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of Ammunition. Drawing the Ammunition from a Quiver, case, or other container is part of the Attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended Ammunition by taking a minute to Search the battlefield. If you use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a melee Attack, you treat the weapon as an Improvised Weapon (see “Improvised Weapons” later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way.

Loading property:

Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

So no you cant dual wield hand crossbows with crossbow expert feat and sharpshooter feat as a fighter. You are right that would be incredibly OP but even for a single hand crossbow its still a strong build.

Even if you could, two weapon fighting uses a bonus action and crossbow expert extra attack uses a bonus action, so you dont have enough action economy to get 2 extra sharpshooter attacks regardless.

[ShiroiWolf]

Zangetsu님이 먼저 게시:

Rallek25님이 먼저 게시:

There's a feat in 5e called crossbow expert where:
- you ignore the loading property of crossbows
- Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
- When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
This is on pg. 165 of the PHB.

But dual wielding hand crossbows, with crossbow expert, and sharpshooter on a fighter is one of the most OP builds you can make in 5e.

Ammunition property:

You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged Attack only if you have Ammunition to fire from the weapon. Each time you Attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of Ammunition. Drawing the Ammunition from a Quiver, case, or other container is part of the Attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon). At the end of the battle, you can recover half your expended Ammunition by taking a minute to Search the battlefield. If you use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a melee Attack, you treat the weapon as an Improvised Weapon (see “Improvised Weapons” later in the section). A sling must be loaded to deal any damage when used in this way.

Loading property:

Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.

So no you cant dual wield hand crossbows with crossbow expert feat and sharpshooter feat as a fighter. You are right that would be incredibly OP but even for a single hand crossbow its still a strong build.

Even if you could, two weapon fighting uses a bonus action and crossbow expert extra attack uses a bonus action, so you dont have enough action economy to get 2 extra sharpshooter attacks regardless.

See above points made by Alealexi and myself.

The single Hand Crossbow you wield in your hand counts as a "one Handed weapon", and therefore, you can get a bonus action attack from Crossbow Expert anyways by wielding a single Hand Crossbow, making your normal attacks with it, then a bonus attack again with the crossbow

likewise, the hand crossbow on its own doesn't do a lot of damage outside of ability score modifier damage (you'll have better luck with a light or heavy cross bow, which do 1d8 and 1d12 damage respectively). As stated, the Hand Crossbow is used to combo with other options (sleight of hand to keep it hidden, Rogue to be able to make two ranged attacks during a turn for more chances at scoring a Sneak Attack. etc etc)

[Alealexi]

Dual wielding hand crossbows does not work and it is non functional. It is not even OP as you can't load it until you drop one.

[Shahadem]

Also hand crossbows aren't real weapons. The amount of force they impart to the light bolt is tiny. I can't remember exactly but it's not that different from a BB gun, probably weaker.