Exploits

[ayrtep]

There seem to be some gaps in Larian' s implementations that allow exploits. For example:

1) You can change worn items any time during combat.
2) You can swap weapons any time during combat.
3) Offhand weapons have attribute damage added. (I think instead of to hit)
4) Wizards can learn any spell, not just the ones available to wizards.
5) others that slip the mind at the moment....

1&2 can be exploited like: equip two-handed sword, hit with two-handed weapons, swap to two shortswords, hit with offhand, then swap offhand sword for shield, end turn. This makes a mockery of the idea of character builds and the whole game in general.

My suggestion.
1) Never change inventory during combat.
2) Don't swap weapons after the first action or bonus action of the turn.
3) Can't do much about this. But dual wield build are stronger for it. Maybe be wait for Larian to fix before playing dual wield character!
4) Unfortunately there is nothing on a scroll to indicate if a wizard can cast it. So need to consult the web https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Wizard or have extremely powerful wizards.

Is 1&2 what happens in 5th edition (Never played).

Any better suggestions?

[DiceWrangler]

1&2) By D&D 5e RAW you can "interact" with ONE object once per turn but many DMs bend the rules a little to allow you to sheath a melee weapon and fire a ranged weapon, or the reverse, on the same turn. Changing armor during combat = NO. Items? Maybe, depends on what it is. Wielding/unwielding a shield takes an Action, most shields are strapped to your forearm, and the only ranged weapon that can be used with a worn shield is a hand crossbow; thrown weapons are OK.

I would recommend considering that worn items, including shields, be locked in-place while you are engaged in combat but allow you to use an Action to change your entire load-out -- including armor! For wielded items, requiring a Bonus action to swap weapons is still too costly so just allow one weapon change per turn.

[Phantom]

God that is only the tip of the ice burg

the most atrocious one is BY far the infinite stealth hit combo (get behind in stealth, do an attack, stealth 99% of the combats the enemy just goes huh something just hit me... how odd... lets just do nothing about this and hope it hey... I got hit again... how odd... lets just do nothing about this and hope it hey...

Its like they are mocking Skyrim stealth archers picking away at people and having them with an arrow sticking out of their eye going hmmm guess it was the wind

couple that with the ranger companion having unlimited use, unlimited range, literally no care about being death marched a hundred times to clear any encounter you come across and you've got your 100000% win condition vs anything (and spider being 1000% better than all the other choices)

They could literally slay an elder god in this game thanks to poor programming, bad ai and interns doing the work

[Ryotaro Dojima: Ace Detective]

Messaggio originale di Phantom:

God that is only the tip of the ice burg

the most atrocious one is BY far the infinite stealth hit combo (get behind in stealth, do an attack, stealth 99% of the combats the enemy just goes huh something just hit me... how odd... lets just do nothing about this and hope it hey... I got hit again... how odd... lets just do nothing about this and hope it hey...

Its like they are mocking Skyrim stealth archers picking away at people and having them with an arrow sticking out of their eye going hmmm guess it was the wind

couple that with the ranger companion having unlimited use, unlimited range, literally no care about being death marched a hundred times to clear any encounter you come across and you've got your 100000% win condition vs anything (and spider being 1000% better than all the other choices)

They could literally slay an elder god in this game thanks to poor programming, bad ai and interns doing the work

I have yet to do that, but I'd have to guess the AI is failing perception checks? The game is all about dice rolls, rather than logic, when it comes to stuff like this.

The programming is fine for a game this early on in its development. They said there'd be bugs and bad AI to start. You people need to learn what an Early Access game is. I'm sure a fair amount of devs just use it to test their late stage betas, but this is much earlier. It's not gonna be fun if you expect everything to work as intended.

[DiceWrangler]

Yeah, Stealth is the BIGGEST EXPLOIT and needs some serious nerfing followed by throwing barrels. People are clearing the Prelude level -- including a Mind Flayer (CR 7) and several Cambions (CR 5) -- with ease by using Hide & ranged attacks when they should be running. All they need to do is have creatures investigate -- or run away -- when hit by an unseen attacker.

[tempest.of.emptiness]

1: If it were me, it would not be possible to change armor at all once combat began. Other worn items would take an action (each) to swap.


2: Currently you can switch between a melee weapon set and a ranged weapon set at will, for free. I think that this is too generous, but also unnecessarily biased. I think that each character should get two weapon/shield sets that they can equip, without requiring one set to be melee and the other ranged. Then, I think that switching between them should require a minor action.

Actually changing out one of the weapons or the shield in a weapon set should require that set to be active and then should cost an action. The rationale for this is that characters should enter combat prepared, and if they find themselves so unprepared that they need to be rummaging through their backpack for the right weapon then they should have to pay the price (time) for their mistake.


3: If you are right about this, then it should be changed to work as intended. Str or Dex, as appropriate for the weapon, should not normally add to offhand weapon damage but it should always add to the chance to hit.


4: Wizards should only be able to learn spells from the Wizard spell list. There's not much more to say about that. I have Gale running around with Armor of Agathys casting Guiding Bolt and Cause Wounds. That needs to go away before release.


5: It should not be possible to send items to another character or to camp during combat. If this is too strict, then it should be necessary for the two characters to be adjacent and the sending should cost an action for the sender. My main character is a rogue (thief), and I keep running him around soloing stuff and if I need to heal I have another character (far away, possibly not even on the same map) send him some food. That shouldn't be possible. I had a battle where there were some explosive barrels in my path to reach some enemies I was in combat with. I had to end my turn near the barrels, but instead of being forced to risking their detonation by the enemies I was able to pick them all up and send them all to camp (I was not strong enough to carry them all, or even one of them really because of my other gear). That also shouldn't be possible.

The fix is to prohibit that, or at least require it to cost time.


6: Disengage and jump need to be separate things. Being able to jump out of threat is too powerful, because it not only allows you to counter disengage but simultaneously allows you to circumvent ground features, obstacles, or blocks in your path. It also allows you to jump and then shove in the same turn without suffering an opportunity attack, which is too much. There's just no way for any AI near a ledge to defend against that. If jump and disengage were each a minor action then at least the enemy would get an attack of opportunity as you jumped behind them before you got to shove them to their death.


7: Enemies that have taken damage but cannot see any hostile target need to be programmed to move away from locations at which they have been attacked. You may not know where the sniper is, but you know that if a sniper shoots at you then staying in the same place is not going to protect you from a subsequent attack. They should be ants scurrying for cover, not sheep waiting to die one-by-one.


8: It probably shouldn't be possible to eat food during combat. Choking down an entire hog's head in one bonus action, possibly round-after-round, seems unrealistic. Maybe leave the in-combat healing to potions and let food serve as out-of-combat recovery only.

[Flafi]

I am absolutely no friend of these D&D rules, and to make that clear. These games don't want to be D&D. If you want to play D&D, look for a game like this but don't require that you make the game a D&D.

The fights are awesome, I love the freedom to do whatever I can think of. And if I want to throw barrels at my opponent, that's the way it is.

I usually place them in stealth beforehand and set them on fire with a range attack. Fight faster and go on. The game should be fun, and not unnecessarily monotonous by your forced D&D 5E rules that you have to spend 3 hours in a fight as you want it. Sry, I still have a life besides the game and you want to see the end as well. But if every time you have to assume that a fight with your rules will take 5 hours. no thanks

[Flafi]

Messaggio originale di tempest.of.emptiness:

1: If it were me, it would not be possible to change armor at all once combat began. Other worn items would take an action (each) to swap.


2: Currently you can switch between a melee weapon set and a ranged weapon set at will, for free. I think that this is too generous, but also unnecessarily biased. I think that each character should get two weapon/shield sets that they can equip, without requiring one set to be melee and the other ranged. Then, I think that switching between them should require a minor action.

Actually changing out one of the weapons or the shield in a weapon set should require that set to be active and then should cost an action. The rationale for this is that characters should enter combat prepared, and if they find themselves so unprepared that they need to be rummaging through their backpack for the right weapon then they should have to pay the price (time) for their mistake.


3: If you are right about this, then it should be changed to work as intended. Str or Dex, as appropriate for the weapon, should not normally add to offhand weapon damage but it should always add to the chance to hit.


4: Wizards should only be able to learn spells from the Wizard spell list. There's not much more to say about that. I have Gale running around with Armor of Agathys casting Guiding Bolt and Cause Wounds. That needs to go away before release.


5: It should not be possible to send items to another character or to camp during combat. If this is too strict, then it should be necessary for the two characters to be adjacent and the sending should cost an action for the sender. My main character is a rogue (thief), and I keep running him around soloing stuff and if I need to heal I have another character (far away, possibly not even on the same map) send him some food. That shouldn't be possible. I had a battle where there were some explosive barrels in my path to reach some enemies I was in combat with. I had to end my turn near the barrels, but instead of being forced to risking their detonation by the enemies I was able to pick them all up and send them all to camp (I was not strong enough to carry them all, or even one of them really because of my other gear). That also shouldn't be possible.

The fix is to prohibit that, or at least require it to cost time.


6: Disengage and jump need to be separate things. Being able to jump out of threat is too powerful, because it not only allows you to counter disengage but simultaneously allows you to circumvent ground features, obstacles, or blocks in your path. It also allows you to jump and then shove in the same turn without suffering an opportunity attack, which is too much. There's just no way for any AI near a ledge to defend against that. If jump and disengage were each a minor action then at least the enemy would get an attack of opportunity as you jumped behind them before you got to shove them to their death.


7: Enemies that have taken damage but cannot see any hostile target need to be programmed to move away from locations at which they have been attacked. You may not know where the sniper is, but you know that if a sniper shoots at you then staying in the same place is not going to protect you from a subsequent attack. They should be ants scurrying for cover, not sheep waiting to die one-by-one.


8: It probably shouldn't be possible to eat food during combat. Choking down an entire hog's head in one bonus action, possibly round-after-round, seems unrealistic. Maybe leave the in-combat healing to potions and let food serve as out-of-combat recovery only.

What you write about jumping does the same with your opponent. So you want to forbid it but the enemy can continue to play like this, the enemy can throw barrels but the player is not allowed to hop?

Sry but you forget that this game is not a D&D but just a game that is turn-based. There are already enough problems than to force another D&D here. Think about that it is not for everyone, and why do people shorten the laps with all sorts of tricks? Exactly because they are boring and they want to make it even more boring. I love the freedom to secretly shoot enemies, disappear briefly and then again. So wait until the opponent needs 30 seconds per figure in his.


The best thing is to ask for a rogue-like system.


these 5E rules are not to be used in the game, and hit chance, sry what nonsense?
The whole thing is based on dice luck what brings me a chance to hit when the dice says no? Then better DEX dmg increased and if hit correctly but not Miss Miss Miss Miss hey I have a hit chance 99% Miss Miss Miss.

[ayrtep]

Messaggio originale di DiceWrangler:

Yeah, Stealth is the BIGGEST EXPLOIT and needs some serious nerfing followed by throwing barrels.

I think there is nothing wrong with a sniper putting the fear of God into a group. But point taken.

Is there anything non-D&D5th edition that Larian is doing wrong with regards to stealth? Or can it all be put down to dumb AI?

[MrBocks]

Messaggio originale di ayrtep:

Messaggio originale di DiceWrangler:

Yeah, Stealth is the BIGGEST EXPLOIT and needs some serious nerfing followed by throwing barrels.

I think there is nothing wrong with a sniper putting the fear of God into a group. But point taken.

Is there anything non-D&D5th edition that Larian is doing wrong with regards to stealth? Or can it all be put down to dumb AI?

I think its either an oversight, it isn't programmed yet, or a bug, I don't believe the AI is even going through the motions of checking that it actually took damage from stealth, You can kill most enemies in the game by walking up behind them and just infinite attacking them. Larian had a small issue with stealth in divinity 2 which is still present in this game, the ability to move your non-discussion party members anywhere on the battlefield before most fights started while your other character "talked" letting you not only obtain advantageous positions but in most cases unload a full wave of crowd control magic from stealth giving you a huge advantage. Some fights prevented this, I'm not sure why most of them didn't but it did make the game really easy to cheese. The same problem still exists in this game but it's absolutely broken when paired with infinite attacks from stealth

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Messaggio originale di Flafnir:

I am absolutely no friend of these D&D rules, and to make that clear. These games don't want to be D&D. If you want to play D&D, look for a game like this but don't require that you make the game a D&D.

The fights are awesome, I love the freedom to do whatever I can think of. And if I want to throw barrels at my opponent, that's the way it is.

I usually place them in stealth beforehand and set them on fire with a range attack. Fight faster and go on. The game should be fun, and not unnecessarily monotonous by your forced D&D 5E rules that you have to spend 3 hours in a fight as you want it. Sry, I still have a life besides the game and you want to see the end as well. But if every time you have to assume that a fight with your rules will take 5 hours. no thanks

We're talking about exploits that should be removed, not trying to make the battles take longer.

For example, I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be able to place down a barrel of oil while in stealth, sneak away, and then explode it with a flaming arrow to do a ton of damage. That's fine. What isn't fine is having a stack of 30 barrels of oil on one map, with a character stationed there, and another character in a battle on another map, with the first character picking up a barrel and somehow "teleporting" it to the other character so that they can instantly produce barrels of oil at will during combat.

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't be able to come up with creative solutions. Being able to somehow attack with a two-handed weapon and also an off-hand weapon and then also always have a shield during your opponent's turns for defense is not a creative solution. It is just broken.

[Phantom]

No ryoto its not the AI failing checks its the AI never having been programmed to take them in the first place

[Freak4Leeks]

Messaggio originale di Phantom:

God that is only the tip of the ice burg

the most atrocious one is BY far the infinite stealth hit combo (get behind in stealth, do an attack, stealth 99% of the combats the enemy just goes huh something just hit me... how odd... lets just do nothing about this and hope it hey... I got hit again... how odd... lets just do nothing about this and hope it hey...

Its like they are mocking Skyrim stealth archers picking away at people and having them with an arrow sticking out of their eye going hmmm guess it was the wind

couple that with the ranger companion having unlimited use, unlimited range, literally no care about being death marched a hundred times to clear any encounter you come across and you've got your 100000% win condition vs anything (and spider being 1000% better than all the other choices)

They could literally slay an elder god in this game thanks to poor programming, bad ai and interns doing the work

Hahaha that was something you could do in divinity 2 as well just hit and sneak until dead i didn't really consider it again in this

[tempest.of.emptiness]

Messaggio originale di Flafnir:

What you write about jumping does the same with your opponent. So you want to forbid it but the enemy can continue to play like this, the enemy can throw barrels but the player is not allowed to hop?

Obviously, the changes would be applied to everyone, not just players. The AI would still be permitted to do anything that the player can do, at least in theory. Naturally one would expect human players to be more creative than AIs, generally speaking. The rules for each would be the same, though.

Also, if you read what I said, I am not suggesting that anyone wouldn't be able to jump or throw barrels. The changes I'm suggesting are to the parameters associated with those actions.

Messaggio originale di Flafnir:

Sry but you forget that this game is not a D&D but just a game that is turn-based. There are already enough problems than to force another D&D here. Think about that it is not for everyone, and why do people shorten the laps with all sorts of tricks? Exactly because they are boring and they want to make it even more boring. I love the freedom to secretly shoot enemies, disappear briefly and then again. So wait until the opponent needs 30 seconds per figure in his.

I get that you want to change the topic of this discussion to whether or not BG3 should follow D&D rules. That isn't what this thread is about, though. We are talking about exploits that should be fixed for the sake of the game itself, whatever it is. If you read what I said then you will notice that never once did I suggest making a change because it would make the game more like D&D or that the way things work now should be changed because it wasn't enough like D&D.

If you want to argue about how closely the game should follow PNP D&D then there are other threads for that, where your arguments would be on topic.

Messaggio originale di Flafnir:

these 5E rules are not to be used in the game, and hit chance, sry what nonsense?
The whole thing is based on dice luck what brings me a chance to hit when the dice says no? Then better DEX dmg increased and if hit correctly but not Miss Miss Miss Miss hey I have a hit chance 99% Miss Miss Miss.

Have you never played a role-playing game before? For good or bad, what you are criticizing is the cornerstone of such games. You want to do something, there's a chance that you'll succeed. If you do, great. If not, you dust yourself off and roll with the consequences of the failure. Rinse and repeat.

It is possible to miss three 99% attacks in a row. That will happen about once in every million such attempts. If a million people play the game, one of them is going to miss three 99% attacks in a row (on average). That's just how these things work. 99% does not mean "you will succeed", it means "you might fail".

If that's not something you can handle in a game then maybe you would get more enjoyment from games that don't show you the odds.