multi classing

[EveranIllesere]

Wow !

you can only start multi classing once you have reached level 4 (leveling up as level 4 character )

i have checking the players handbook 5e - its doen't say that you have to reach is level 4 before can add another class to your character .. but it doe's say you can add another class once you have the chance to levelup & you have the stat or stats so you can add that class to your character .... ( min 13)

[Enigmatory]

Originally posted by Pochusaurus:

Originally posted by Enigmatory:

Multiclassing mainly used by minmaxers.

you must be quoting the wrong person because i didn’t say that minmaxers dont multiclass. my comment was with people building their characters however they wanted

I don't really argue or criticize you. My point is - each class has it own cons. Mostly ppl try to fix it's cons instead of accept it. That's what munchkins and minmaxers do.
Still many players use multiclass to make characters as they see it's "image".
But that's don't change fact about MC generally - you just pick best options from worst list.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by jmvbento:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Multiclassing slows down your progression and development for your main class. Meaning, you will almost always be behind the rest of the party in terms of ASI, feats and spellslots/spell level.
As such, the multiclass option needs some serious benefits to make it worthwhile.
For instance, a Sorcadin or Hexadin at level 5 has no extra attack and might not even have an ASI/feat, depending on level distribution(2/3). Their overall spell level will also be relatively low(only able to cast level 1 spells, unless you go 3sorc/2pala or 4sorc/1pala).
And this continues throughout the campaign.

Sure, by level 20, that matters less, but most of the campaigns will never reach 20 anyway.
Unless your DM gives you a level up every 2 hours for some reason.

Point is, if you know what you are doing, multiclassing can give you unique benefits, but always at the cost of something else.

You know what a 3/2 Sorcadin DOES get, though? Quickened Hold Person for automatic crit-smites. That's better than an extra attack in any fight that matters.

Yes, until you hit very high levels you're going to be lagging behind in some areas compared to a single-class build and you're giving something up. I have no problems with multiclassing being a meaningful choice that you have to think through.

If you succeed, sure. Otherwise you have spent 2 Sorcery points(of which you only have 3) and a second level spell slot for a "once per Long Rest" trick.
The cost is access to 3rd level spells and less sorcery points(compared to a pure sorc), an ASI/Feat, an Extra Attack(if Paladin) and no 2nd level Paladin spells or Paladin Subclass.

And until you reach level 5(as a 3/2 sorcadin), you will either lack Divine Smite(requires level 2 Paladin) or the ability to cast Hold Person(Requires level 3 Sorcerer), so your contribution up until then will be limited, and outside of succeeding with Hold Person, that will still be the case.

[Arlen]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by EveranIllesere:

this game has in instead add this a as feats on reaching level 4 i have funny idea that baldurs gate 3 isn't go let players to multiclass ..but instead add this as a feat instead .....

Getting your first feat at level 4 is standard for D&D 5e (Unless you are a variant human that get one at level 1). Having a sort of multi classing as a feature of feats sounds... interesting? Will have to explore it further when i get a char to it.

But multi classing is a bit of a optional rule even in D&D. Its not necessarily standard to be able to do it. To quote the players handbook about multi classing: "Your DM decides if these options are available in a campaign".

Have they said anything about Variant Human for character creation?

[cary2010haha]

multi class is weak.
Just like dual weapon style.

Good at low level(like lvl4 now), bad to the end game.


Most meaningful way to use multi class is dump 1 lvl on fighter so you can use all armor and weapon.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Pochusaurus:

Originally posted by Phill:

Multiclassing is fun. It also leads to more powerful builds than relying on 'that 1 6th level spell slot you might lose doing it'. I mean, Why would a Wizard worry about level 19 or 20 if they could take 2 levels of fighter to wear heavy armor, have con save proficiency and action surge to cast both mordenkainen's faithful hound AND wall of force to contain the enemy with the hound in a single turn?

But for now... I really wish people who ask 'will this be in the game' would wait 6 months until we're halfway through early access. Perhaps even wait the whole year, because if you bought the game, great! Enjoy it. If you haven't, go away until it's released and decide then.

you cant do that. atleast not RAW. many people forget that you can only cast ONE spell per turn which is one of the many liberties larian’s bg3allows among other things like spell preparations.

Not quite. You are only allowed 1 spell cast per action per turn. However, if you use your bonus action to cast a spell, you are allowed to use your action to cast a cantrip.
AND
Exceptions take priority over general rules. Action Surge is the exception to the standard action economy, allowing you to make 2 actions in 1 turn. Both of which could be spells(because action surge allows 2 actions per turn), but only if you dont use your bonus action to cast spells(because that forces your action(s) to be cantrips).
This was confirmed in the Sage Advice Conpendium, and as far as I know, that is still true.

However
I have no idea how they intend to do it in BG3.
In my opinion, if people want to multiclass into fighter, which would delay all their spell casting, features and ASI, just to get Action Surge(a 1 per rest ability) and a few proficiencies, then they should be allowed it. It would be a different playstyle, but not something you can rely on over multiple turns or without continous long rests.

[djinnxy]

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

multi class is weak.
Just like dual weapon style.

Good at low level(like lvl4 now), bad to the end game.


Most meaningful way to use multi class is dump 1 lvl on fighter so you can use all armor and weapon.

You must have played with people who didn't understand what they were doing when they multiclassed. I apologize for them that they gave you a bad impression. Your comment is only part of the equation. The other parts are you can build a tank that is nearly unkillable, dps that can one shot almost anything, face characters that can pass literally any skill check in the game, and more.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

multi class is weak.
Just like dual weapon style.

Good at low level(like lvl4 now), bad to the end game.


Most meaningful way to use multi class is dump 1 lvl on fighter so you can use all armor and weapon.

That only works if you start as a Fighter.

[Enigmatory]

Originally posted by djinnxy:

Originally posted by cary2010haha:

multi class is weak.
Just like dual weapon style.

Good at low level(like lvl4 now), bad to the end game.


Most meaningful way to use multi class is dump 1 lvl on fighter so you can use all armor and weapon.

You must have played with people who didn't understand what they were doing when they multiclassed. I apologize for them that they gave you a bad impression. Your comment is only part of the equation. The other parts are you can build a tank that is nearly unkillable, dps that can one shot almost anything, face characters that can pass literally any skill check in the game, and more.

Only unkillable tank - paladin of ancients. He don't need multiclass at all.

[Ard Feainn]

“Multiclassing rule will follow closely the 5e DnD,” Vincke said. “On level up characters will be able to continue with their current class or choose a new class, provided they meet the requirements.”

3 whole seconds in Google. I personally haven't seen a point to multiclass in 5e because ♥♥♥♥'s so watered down I don't think there's a benefit to it in comparison to continuing your primary class, but maybe there are some good multiclass options.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by Ard Feainn:

“Multiclassing rule will follow closely the 5e DnD,” Vincke said. “On level up characters will be able to continue with their current class or choose a new class, provided they meet the requirements.”

3 whole seconds in Google. I personally haven't seen a point to multiclass in 5e because ♥♥♥♥'s so watered down I don't think there's a benefit to it in comparison to continuing your primary class, but maybe there are some good multiclass options.

There are definately some interesting ones. But nothing I would consider stronger than just going for a solo class. It is more about finding a style that you enjoy, than being a min-maxed powerhouse to be honest.

Multiclasses usually ends up either being more flexible(access to more proficiencies, types of spells and unique features) or more specialized(powerful in specific situations) at the cost of the opposite.

[jmvbento]

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

Originally posted by jmvbento:

You know what a 3/2 Sorcadin DOES get, though? Quickened Hold Person for automatic crit-smites. That's better than an extra attack in any fight that matters.

Yes, until you hit very high levels you're going to be lagging behind in some areas compared to a single-class build and you're giving something up. I have no problems with multiclassing being a meaningful choice that you have to think through.

If you succeed, sure. Otherwise you have spent 2 Sorcery points(of which you only have 3) and a second level spell slot for a "once per Long Rest" trick.
The cost is access to 3rd level spells and less sorcery points(compared to a pure sorc), an ASI/Feat, an Extra Attack(if Paladin) and no 2nd level Paladin spells or Paladin Subclass.

And until you reach level 5(as a 3/2 sorcadin), you will either lack Divine Smite(requires level 2 Paladin) or the ability to cast Hold Person(Requires level 3 Sorcerer), so your contribution up until then will be limited, and outside of succeeding with Hold Person, that will still be the case.

I mean, if you're making a character banking on FAILING, sure. Otherwise, you're in free critsmite town. The thing is that, if you're making an offensive Paladin, it's all about the critfishing, and 5E gives you very few possibilities for that (it's basically go Fighter Champion or go home), and Sorcadinning gets you that (and also you have more spell slots to smite with, because you can use the Sorcerer's side ones).

To the people talking about the Fighter/Wizard MCing - though Fighter/Wizarding DOES get you Constitution save proficiency, you lose (natural) access to Wisdom save proficiency, which is, imo, a much more important save, not only because failing Wisdom saves is *generally* worse than failing a Constitution one, but also because you're probably going to have a higher Constitution score to help you with them. Action Surging two spells in one round IS nice, though. (I still prefer the one-level Nature Cleric dip for Heavy Armour+Shield access).

[Arlen]

Originally posted by jmvbento:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

If you succeed, sure. Otherwise you have spent 2 Sorcery points(of which you only have 3) and a second level spell slot for a "once per Long Rest" trick.
The cost is access to 3rd level spells and less sorcery points(compared to a pure sorc), an ASI/Feat, an Extra Attack(if Paladin) and no 2nd level Paladin spells or Paladin Subclass.

And until you reach level 5(as a 3/2 sorcadin), you will either lack Divine Smite(requires level 2 Paladin) or the ability to cast Hold Person(Requires level 3 Sorcerer), so your contribution up until then will be limited, and outside of succeeding with Hold Person, that will still be the case.

I mean, if you're making a character banking on FAILING, sure. Otherwise, you're in free critsmite town. The thing is that, if you're making an offensive Paladin, it's all about the critfishing, and 5E gives you very few possibilities for that (it's basically go Fighter Champion or go home), and Sorcadinning gets you that (and also you have more spell slots to smite with, because you can use the Sorcerer's side ones).

To the people talking about the Fighter/Wizard MCing - though Fighter/Wizarding DOES get you Constitution save proficiency, you lose (natural) access to Wisdom save proficiency, which is, imo, a much more important save, not only because failing Wisdom saves is *generally* worse than failing a Constitution one, but also because you're probably going to have a higher Constitution score to help you with them. Action Surging two spells in one round IS nice, though. (I still prefer the one-level Nature Cleric dip for Heavy Armour+Shield access).

Wow, so much incorrect information here. First, you cannot action surge a spell attack, action surge is very specific on what a fighter can or multi clas fighter can do. Second, sword and board Paladin with Shieldmaster feat can knock prone instead of shove, as a bonus action, it's just a contested Str check. So they can crit fish without being a Champion - now , in THIS game, they took away the first of three paragraphs of the shieldmaster description. Which vastly underpowers the feat. as this is all hypothewtical (cannot play a paladin in the game yet), I am going by pen and paper, the PHB, and by rulings from official WotC personell regarding Shieldmaster. All you need to do is search the D&D reddits, and Adventurers League reddits for the AMA's and specific replies.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by jmvbento:

Originally posted by Fendelphi:

If you succeed, sure. Otherwise you have spent 2 Sorcery points(of which you only have 3) and a second level spell slot for a "once per Long Rest" trick.
The cost is access to 3rd level spells and less sorcery points(compared to a pure sorc), an ASI/Feat, an Extra Attack(if Paladin) and no 2nd level Paladin spells or Paladin Subclass.

And until you reach level 5(as a 3/2 sorcadin), you will either lack Divine Smite(requires level 2 Paladin) or the ability to cast Hold Person(Requires level 3 Sorcerer), so your contribution up until then will be limited, and outside of succeeding with Hold Person, that will still be the case.

I mean, if you're making a character banking on FAILING, sure. Otherwise, you're in free critsmite town. The thing is that, if you're making an offensive Paladin, it's all about the critfishing, and 5E gives you very few possibilities for that (it's basically go Fighter Champion or go home), and Sorcadinning gets you that (and also you have more spell slots to smite with, because you can use the Sorcerer's side ones).

It is not about banking on failing. You are banking on a gamble. Your entire setup relies on a powerful enemy not resisting a Wisdom saving throw, and you can only do it once per long rest in the manner you have described(because you only have 3 Sorcery points, and Quickening requires 2).
By level 5, a lot of "tough humanoid enemies" will have a decent Wisdom saving throw(+1 or +2), so against your DC of 13 or 14, they will save almost half the time. It is also entirely possible that your important spell will get counter-spelled, since that is available. And even if the enemy ends up paralyzed, you still need to be in melee range and hit it(you dont hit automatically, and against an enemy with an AC of 15 or more, so even with advantage, you might miss 1 out of 3 attacks).
Also remember that Hold Person requires Verbal, Somantic and Material components, which means you need 1 hand free.
Not to mention if you are fighting anything other than humanoids, the spell has no effect. Then you will be left with level 1 spells and 1 attack per round.
The only way you could possibly make it harder for yourself would be to have the minimum requirement of 13 Charisma.

Why not just have a level 5 Sorcerer(at a higher level and with +2 to Charisma for better DC) or Wizard(or any other caster that can cast Hold person) cast Hold Person on that big baddie, and then have a level 5 Paladin attack twice, and smite it? Or have the level 5 Fighter Action Surge and dunk 4 attacks on it? Or have have the Rogue Sneak Attack it? Even if Hold Person does not stick, it does not drastically reduce overall efficiency and versatility.
These have far less opportunity costs than the playstyle you are suggesting.

Of course, that does not mean that it cant be done or that it does not feel good if you succeed. Just that it is in no way efficient.

[jmvbento]

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

Originally posted by jmvbento:

I mean, if you're making a character banking on FAILING, sure. Otherwise, you're in free critsmite town. The thing is that, if you're making an offensive Paladin, it's all about the critfishing, and 5E gives you very few possibilities for that (it's basically go Fighter Champion or go home), and Sorcadinning gets you that (and also you have more spell slots to smite with, because you can use the Sorcerer's side ones).

To the people talking about the Fighter/Wizard MCing - though Fighter/Wizarding DOES get you Constitution save proficiency, you lose (natural) access to Wisdom save proficiency, which is, imo, a much more important save, not only because failing Wisdom saves is *generally* worse than failing a Constitution one, but also because you're probably going to have a higher Constitution score to help you with them. Action Surging two spells in one round IS nice, though. (I still prefer the one-level Nature Cleric dip for Heavy Armour+Shield access).

Wow, so much incorrect information here. First, you cannot action surge a spell attack, action surge is very specific on what a fighter can or multi clas fighter can do. Second, sword and board Paladin with Shieldmaster feat can knock prone instead of shove, as a bonus action, it's just a contested Str check. So they can crit fish without being a Champion - now , in THIS game, they took away the first of three paragraphs of the shieldmaster description. Which vastly underpowers the feat. as this is all hypothewtical (cannot play a paladin in the game yet), I am going by pen and paper, the PHB, and by rulings from official WotC personell regarding Shieldmaster. All you need to do is search the D&D reddits, and Adventurers League reddits for the AMA's and specific replies.

You are most definitely NOT. Let's go through the motions:

Action Surge gives you an extra Action. What you do with that Action is your business: if you want to use it to cast an spell with a casting time of one Action, you get to cast that spell. Here's the dude who WROTE THE RULES saying exactly that: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/573950910826573824

The Shield Master shove lets you put people prone, which gives you advantage at 5ft, so you go from a 5% crit chance on each attack roll to 7.5%, whoop-dee-doo. Hold Person gets you auto crits. AND, when you get Extra Attack, it works on BOTH attacks, unlike the SHieldmaster shove, which only works on one of your attacks per turn, because you have to make at least one before being able to Bonus Action Shieldmaster into proning something. Again, here's the dude WHO WROTE THE RULES:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1105183657877135360


Perhaps you should endeavour to read the rules instead of what random people in reddits say.

[Fendelphi]

Originally posted by billybobtexan1000:

Originally posted by jmvbento:

I mean, if you're making a character banking on FAILING, sure. Otherwise, you're in free critsmite town. The thing is that, if you're making an offensive Paladin, it's all about the critfishing, and 5E gives you very few possibilities for that (it's basically go Fighter Champion or go home), and Sorcadinning gets you that (and also you have more spell slots to smite with, because you can use the Sorcerer's side ones).

To the people talking about the Fighter/Wizard MCing - though Fighter/Wizarding DOES get you Constitution save proficiency, you lose (natural) access to Wisdom save proficiency, which is, imo, a much more important save, not only because failing Wisdom saves is *generally* worse than failing a Constitution one, but also because you're probably going to have a higher Constitution score to help you with them. Action Surging two spells in one round IS nice, though. (I still prefer the one-level Nature Cleric dip for Heavy Armour+Shield access).

Wow, so much incorrect information here. First, you cannot action surge a spell attack, action surge is very specific on what a fighter can or multi clas fighter can do. Second, sword and board Paladin with Shieldmaster feat can knock prone instead of shove, as a bonus action, it's just a contested Str check. So they can crit fish without being a Champion - now , in THIS game, they took away the first of three paragraphs of the shieldmaster description. Which vastly underpowers the feat. as this is all hypothewtical (cannot play a paladin in the game yet), I am going by pen and paper, the PHB, and by rulings from official WotC personell regarding Shieldmaster. All you need to do is search the D&D reddits, and Adventurers League reddits for the AMA's and specific replies.

He is completely right about Action Surge. It does allow for 2 regular spells in 1 turn. But only if you do not use your bonus action to cast a spell.

Edit: I will say that crit-fishing is not really viable for most tables, because as soon as it becomes the modus operandi, the DM will take steps to make it harder for you to pull it off consistently. Just having an enemy bard or wizard means a high chance of counter-spell, so you would have to dedicate a decent amount of ressources to pull off the Hold Person/Monster combo.

Edit2: Also, Shieldmaster is kind of bad offensively, except if your DM homebrews a bit. It is ok for defense, if your class has nothing that can do something similar. I would say that overall, Shieldmaster is a weak to moderate feat, but with a lot of flair.