Question about Elturel (Tabletop)

[plasticsoda]

This is not a question about the game, but rather about the tie-in module centered around Eturel and Zariel, you know, the whole shenanigan with the refugee Tieflings.

I'm starting a campaign with new players who know nothing about Forgotten Realms lore and it just so happened that all of their characters they created for themselves were orphans. I tought it was lame at first and a real testament of how pop culture tropes have ruined our creative process but then I tought about revealing to them somewhere at the end of our first module that they are all baalspawn.

So, my question is, how does the module 'Descent to Avernus' tie in with Baalspawn, if at all? I'm imagining it doesn't and if so, do you guys have any module recomendations?

I'll reveal the ballspawn connection at the end of our first module, interlude with a short module and then our 3rd will be Descent to Avernus or any module that has anything to do with Baal

[Tresh]

If they're all new players, I'd be careful with changing the background of their characters so fundamentally without their knowledge and consent.
It might be a little... tired that they all created orphaned characters, but unless they gave you free license to decide who their parents where and how they died, making them all children of Baal seems like a recipe for disaster.

Also, if I understood the game correctly, during BG3 Durge, Sarevok and Orin are the only living Baalspawn, with Durge having been created from the flesh of Baal. Most Baalspawn died during the Baalspawn crisis 150 years prior.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by Tresh:

If they're all new players, I'd be careful with changing the background of their characters so fundamentally without their knowledge and consent.
It might be a little... tired that they all created orphaned characters, but unless they gave you free license to decide who their parents where and how they died, making them all children of Baal seems like a recipe for disaster.

Also, if I understood the game correctly, during BG3 Durge, Sarevok and Orin are the only living Baalspawn, with Durge having been created from the flesh of Baal. Most Baalspawn died during the Baalspawn crisis 150 years prior.

I could not agree more.

As a dungeon master it is easy to mess up a character completely just because you can due to the blank space they offer as being an "orphan", the other troupe "amnesia suffering" protagonist.

And it does not take much to mess up so hard, that the players no longer like their characters and that can bring certain downfall to the whole campaign.

Originally posted by plasticsoda:

Question about Elturel (Tabletop)
This is not a question about the game, but rather about the tie-in module centered around Eturel and Zariel, you know, the whole shenanigan with the refugee Tieflings.

I'm starting a campaign with new players who know nothing about Forgotten Realms lore and it just so happened that all of their characters they created for themselves were orphans. I tought it was lame at first and a real testament of how pop culture tropes have ruined our creative process but then I tought about revealing to them somewhere at the end of our first module that they are all baalspawn.

So, my question is, how does the module 'Descent to Avernus' tie in with Baalspawn, if at all? I'm imagining it doesn't and if so, do you guys have any module recomendations?

I'll reveal the ballspawn connection at the end of our first module, interlude with a short module and then our 3rd will be Descent to Avernus or any module that has anything to do with Baal

Descent into Avernus has basically nothing to do with th Bhaalspawn saga and anything which could and would connect them is homebrew. There is one good commercial homebrew which is always recommended, to make a proper prologue to the campaign, but it sounds you are already past that?

To keep it short and decisive: you are sharing far too little information about your plans regarding introducing Bhaalspawn to the campaign to begin with. On the one hand you complain about pop culture troupe with orphans and yet on the other hand you seemingly embrace the classic troupe of "chose ones" with your player characters either fated to die against each other or being siblings etc. with bigger meaning in life. That is somewhat different than the core of the campaign which is, in my point of view, mainly about how close one can get to hell due to human sins and what costs justify the means.

By all means: my first thought after reading your description and plan was - that sounds like it would fit better the Wrath of the Righteous campaign where you have faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more fitting leeway to have "chosen ones" story which is still lore consistence.

Putting Bhaalspawn with angel Zariel story... seems not fitting and all, and I see you already have work cut out if you want to make a proper campaign introduction, especially with all player characters like that to begin with. The orphan thing e.g. works only like that if the player characters have similar starting points, like the protagonist with Baldur's Gate 1, the original saga.

[Nomicoe]

I always liked the idea of DMs adding their own touch to players backgrounds, especially if they leave big blank canvasses for them to play around in. Also waiting to pull this out as a huge twist seems like a lot of fun.
But it honestly depends, some players are super uptight, and want control of every single thing that happens or has happened to them, while others are a little more go-with-the-flow.
Def read the room, some players would love this, others might hate it.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by Nomicoe:

I always liked the idea of DMs adding their own touch to players backgrounds, especially if they leave big blank canvasses for them to play around in. Also waiting to pull this out as a huge twist seems like a lot of fun.
But it honestly depends, some players are super uptight, and want control of every single thing that happens or has happened to them, while others are a little more go-with-the-flow.
Def read the room, some players would love this, others might hate it.

It is not just that. A blank canvas without limitations is too dangerous. As a dungeon master you can put stuff like how the player character's parents were killed or worse by villain xyz. Which sounds like some troupe good vs. evil story can turn quickly dark if there is no consideration at all for the players actual backgrounds.

[Tresh]

Originally posted by Nomicoe:

I always liked the idea of DMs adding their own touch to players backgrounds, especially if they leave big blank canvasses for them to play around in. Also waiting to pull this out as a huge twist seems like a lot of fun.
But it honestly depends, some players are super uptight, and want control of every single thing that happens or has happened to them, while others are a little more go-with-the-flow.
Def read the room, some players would love this, others might hate it.

It's simply something that should be discussed with the players on whether they're cool with it.
It's not like the DM has to reveal their actual plans, but just asking the players whether they are okay with the DM introducing a major plottwist regarding their characters' parents is a good way to ensure that nobody feels snubbed by having control over their character taken away.

The DM controls everything about the game: The Environment, the people the players meet, the time, even the weather. The one thing a player has a certain level of control over is their character, and making a character a bhaalspawn without the player's knowledge can recontextualize a lot of things about the character in ways not every player would appreciate.

[Starwight/ttv]

Yeah DM here for several years now, and I agree with the general consensus. As a DM, it is okay to play with backgrounds to a degree, but making them baalspawn effects a LOT, so that is something you'd either want to discuss ahead of time--or just see if your players give agency to tweak the backstory to your liking.

As a player I'm cool with stuff like that, but as a DM--ESPECIALLY with new players, you want to make sure everyone is set up to have a good time.

As for the all orphans, there's a lot you can do with that. Maybe they are all from the same orphanage and there were secrets being conducted there that their presence was needed for. Maybe their parents who abandoned them were notable heroes or even nobility and they find out. Maybe they are even related to whomever your BBEG is, setting up a bit of a moral quandary later.

Point being, as a DM, there are ways to work their backstory, trite though it may be, into the story--and it's your job to do that if you're taking up the DM mantle here.

[White Knight]

For what it's worth, back when I was DMing, I'd have the group over specifically for at least one character creation session. This was how I made sure that people weren't "phoning-it-in". There were also NO pregen characters allowed. All from scratch and they came up with stories about their characters and backgrounds, etc.

[Tresh]

Originally posted by White Knight:

For what it's worth, back when I was DMing, I'd have the group over specifically for at least one character creation session. This was how I made sure that people weren't "phoning-it-in". There were also NO pregen characters allowed. All from scratch and they came up with stories about their characters and backgrounds, etc.

Feels a little extreme, depending on how far you take that "NO pregen characters allowed" idea. Like just not a fully premade character or would you count a concept that someone wanted to play for a while and has played around with in their head as a result as kind of pregen already?

[White Knight]

Originally posted by Tresh:

Feels a little extreme, depending on how far you take that "NO pregen characters allowed" idea. Like just not a fully premade character or would you count a concept that someone wanted to play for a while and has played around with in their head as a result as kind of pregen already?

My friends are intelligent and creative people - it was never an issue.

[Tresh]

Originally posted by White Knight:

Originally posted by Tresh:

Feels a little extreme, depending on how far you take that "NO pregen characters allowed" idea. Like just not a fully premade character or would you count a concept that someone wanted to play for a while and has played around with in their head as a result as kind of pregen already?

My friends are intelligent and creative people - it was never an issue.

Not sure how having an idea for a concept that you've wanted to play for a while goes against either of those characteristics.

[Indis]

hey, I think that you'll run into some problems if you just choose something for people without discussing it with them first.
as people have mentioned, you'll run into problems with player agency. i understand wanting to make an absolute banger of a story but it's important to collaborate with your players.

you're the author of their experience,so it might be good to approach them privately and see who might want that. if they're all siblings it will also prevent any romantic relationships forming, if your group are the type who like that stuff.

the other issue is that making them spawn of somebody specific, the story stops being about them and what they become, and becomes about legacy. if they all are orphans, it might be that they do not want to engage in a legacy and want to stand on their own terms.

i hope you and your players have a ton of fun!

[Nomicoe]

Originally posted by アンジェル:

Originally posted by Nomicoe:

I always liked the idea of DMs adding their own touch to players backgrounds, especially if they leave big blank canvasses for them to play around in. Also waiting to pull this out as a huge twist seems like a lot of fun.
But it honestly depends, some players are super uptight, and want control of every single thing that happens or has happened to them, while others are a little more go-with-the-flow.
Def read the room, some players would love this, others might hate it.

It is not just that. A blank canvas without limitations is too dangerous. As a dungeon master you can put stuff like how the player character's parents were killed or worse by villain xyz. Which sounds like some troupe good vs. evil story can turn quickly dark if there is no consideration at all for the players actual backgrounds.

Yea, thats on the player leaving the blank canvas was kinda my point though. If you write barely anything, and obviously dont present an idea of how you want the character to play out, be a bit odd to get upset when the DM takes some liberties. But to each their own, everyone has different levels of security and control they need or want, I have players who give me a literal level guide, as they gain features, they want it to play out a certain way. To each their own, just make sure to clue your DM in on what you want, and dont expect them to run everything by you if you give them a blank slate. Just my 2 cents though, no wrong way to have fun.

Originally posted by Tresh:

Originally posted by Nomicoe:

I always liked the idea of DMs adding their own touch to players backgrounds, especially if they leave big blank canvasses for them to play around in. Also waiting to pull this out as a huge twist seems like a lot of fun.
But it honestly depends, some players are super uptight, and want control of every single thing that happens or has happened to them, while others are a little more go-with-the-flow.
Def read the room, some players would love this, others might hate it.

It's simply something that should be discussed with the players on whether they're cool with it.
It's not like the DM has to reveal their actual plans, but just asking the players whether they are okay with the DM introducing a major plottwist regarding their characters' parents is a good way to ensure that nobody feels snubbed by having control over their character taken away.

The DM controls everything about the game: The Environment, the people the players meet, the time, even the weather. The one thing a player has a certain level of control over is their character, and making a character a bhaalspawn without the player's knowledge can recontextualize a lot of things about the character in ways not every player would appreciate.

To me, that isnt having control of your character taken away, especially if they didnt write in any details of their parents. A lot of it to me boils down to how blank of a canvas you left, you cant give a DM a 5 sentence paragraph and get upset cause he took some liberties.
On top of that, players still get the ability to react and change their destiny, youre a bhaalspawn, TEMPTED to do things, not a mindless drone who is forced to be the DMs puppet for the whole game.
You still have agency, nothing is being taken away from you, and youre not being controlled, unless you specifically wrote or said something in your background that would prevent you from being a Bhaalspawn that is.
Otherwise, everything you wrote still matters, nothing changes, or needs re-contextualized.
This is just my personal opinions though obviously, to each their own, but I do recommend regardless that players reach out to the DM and let them know they dont want their backstory touched, especially if as I mentioned, they leave a giant blank canvas.

[Tresh]

Originally posted by Nomicoe:

Originally posted by アンジェル:

It is not just that. A blank canvas without limitations is too dangerous. As a dungeon master you can put stuff like how the player character's parents were killed or worse by villain xyz. Which sounds like some troupe good vs. evil story can turn quickly dark if there is no consideration at all for the players actual backgrounds.

Yea, thats on the player leaving the blank canvas was kinda my point though. If you write barely anything, and obviously dont present an idea of how you want the character to play out, be a bit odd to get upset when the DM takes some liberties. But to each their own, everyone has different levels of security and control they need or want, I have players who give me a literal level guide, as they gain features, they want it to play out a certain way. To each their own, just make sure to clue your DM in on what you want, and dont expect them to run everything by you if you give them a blank slate. Just my 2 cents though, no wrong way to have fun.

Originally posted by Tresh:

It's simply something that should be discussed with the players on whether they're cool with it.
It's not like the DM has to reveal their actual plans, but just asking the players whether they are okay with the DM introducing a major plottwist regarding their characters' parents is a good way to ensure that nobody feels snubbed by having control over their character taken away.

The DM controls everything about the game: The Environment, the people the players meet, the time, even the weather. The one thing a player has a certain level of control over is their character, and making a character a bhaalspawn without the player's knowledge can recontextualize a lot of things about the character in ways not every player would appreciate.

To me, that isnt having control of your character taken away, especially if they didnt write in any details of their parents. A lot of it to me boils down to how blank of a canvas you left, you cant give a DM a 5 sentence paragraph and get upset cause he took some liberties.
On top of that, players still get the ability to react and change their destiny, youre a bhaalspawn, TEMPTED to do things, not a mindless drone who is forced to be the DMs puppet for the whole game.
You still have agency, nothing is being taken away from you, and youre not being controlled, unless you specifically wrote or said something in your background that would prevent you from being a Bhaalspawn that is.
Otherwise, everything you wrote still matters, nothing changes, or needs re-contextualized.
This is just my personal opinions though obviously, to each their own, but I do recommend regardless that players reach out to the DM and let them know they dont want their backstory touched, especially if as I mentioned, they leave a giant blank canvas.

That is implying that the players know that the DM is planning on doing something big with their backstory. If they don't, it's on the DM to reach out and make sure they're okay with that.
Being a bhaalspawn is a huge deal and absolutely puts a character in a different light. It's a massive secret they will need to keep, once it comes out, because contrary to how you get treated in BG3 when you're upfront about your heritage, people would likely hate and fear you if they found out your father is the god of murder and tempts you to violence. There is no need for you to give in to that temptation, for the people around you to get the idea that maybe you should be... removed from the equation before you do.

Having a new player give you a very basic backstory that just gives you that they were orphaned at a young age and putting a little twist around that is one thing.
Making them a child to the god of murder is much more extreme and could absolutely ruin a characer in the player's eyes.
Also, they are new players, so to go "that's on the players" as if they knew better is pretty harsh.

[Nomicoe]

Originally posted by Tresh:

Originally posted by Nomicoe:

Yea, thats on the player leaving the blank canvas was kinda my point though. If you write barely anything, and obviously dont present an idea of how you want the character to play out, be a bit odd to get upset when the DM takes some liberties. But to each their own, everyone has different levels of security and control they need or want, I have players who give me a literal level guide, as they gain features, they want it to play out a certain way. To each their own, just make sure to clue your DM in on what you want, and dont expect them to run everything by you if you give them a blank slate. Just my 2 cents though, no wrong way to have fun.




To me, that isnt having control of your character taken away, especially if they didnt write in any details of their parents. A lot of it to me boils down to how blank of a canvas you left, you cant give a DM a 5 sentence paragraph and get upset cause he took some liberties.
On top of that, players still get the ability to react and change their destiny, youre a bhaalspawn, TEMPTED to do things, not a mindless drone who is forced to be the DMs puppet for the whole game.
You still have agency, nothing is being taken away from you, and youre not being controlled, unless you specifically wrote or said something in your background that would prevent you from being a Bhaalspawn that is.
Otherwise, everything you wrote still matters, nothing changes, or needs re-contextualized.
This is just my personal opinions though obviously, to each their own, but I do recommend regardless that players reach out to the DM and let them know they dont want their backstory touched, especially if as I mentioned, they leave a giant blank canvas.

That is implying that the players know that the DM is planning on doing something big with their backstory. If they don't, it's on the DM to reach out and make sure they're okay with that.
Being a bhaalspawn is a huge deal and absolutely puts a character in a different light. It's a massive secret they will need to keep, once it comes out, because contrary to how you get treated in BG3 when you're upfront about your heritage, people would likely hate and fear you if they found out your father is the god of murder and tempts you to violence. There is no need for you to give in to that temptation, for the people around you to get the idea that maybe you should be... removed from the equation before you do.

Having a new player give you a very basic backstory that just gives you that they were orphaned at a young age and putting a little twist around that is one thing.
Making them a child to the god of murder is much more extreme and could absolutely ruin a characer in the player's eyes.
Also, they are new players, so to go "that's on the players" as if they knew better is pretty harsh.

I 100% agree that communication is key, but it would be very hard for me to come to grips that a character is "ruined" by this type of narrative unless the DM actually forced them to do evil things, changed something fundamental about their backstory, or altered their features/stats. Especially so if there is no mention in their story or character features that would prevent them from going down that route and having an evil father.
I personally wouldnt even worry about the secret aspect, unless the DM is forcing them to do evil stuff, or rule that all Bhaalspawn are now fiends and proc on Divine Sense of course.
To each their own though, as mentioned everyone has their limits and needs for certain types of control, Im not gonna say one way is right or wrong, but I feel like this could be a good intro to Faerun instead of the very stereotypical stories players and WoTC create.

[Tresh]

Originally posted by Nomicoe:

Originally posted by Tresh:

That is implying that the players know that the DM is planning on doing something big with their backstory. If they don't, it's on the DM to reach out and make sure they're okay with that.
Being a bhaalspawn is a huge deal and absolutely puts a character in a different light. It's a massive secret they will need to keep, once it comes out, because contrary to how you get treated in BG3 when you're upfront about your heritage, people would likely hate and fear you if they found out your father is the god of murder and tempts you to violence. There is no need for you to give in to that temptation, for the people around you to get the idea that maybe you should be... removed from the equation before you do.

Having a new player give you a very basic backstory that just gives you that they were orphaned at a young age and putting a little twist around that is one thing.
Making them a child to the god of murder is much more extreme and could absolutely ruin a characer in the player's eyes.
Also, they are new players, so to go "that's on the players" as if they knew better is pretty harsh.

I 100% agree that communication is key, but it would be very hard for me to come to grips that a character is "ruined" by this type of narrative unless the DM actually forced them to do evil things, changed something fundamental about their backstory, or altered their features/stats. Especially so if there is no mention in their story or character features that would prevent them from going down that route and having an evil father.
I personally wouldnt even worry about the secret aspect, unless the DM is forcing them to do evil stuff, or rule that all Bhaalspawn are now fiends and proc on Divine Sense of course.
To each their own though, as mentioned everyone has their limits and needs for certain types of control, Im not gonna say one way is right or wrong, but I feel like this could be a good intro to Faerun instead of the very stereotypical stories players and WoTC create.

Well, if the DM isn't going to make being a Bhaalspawn a big part of the story, quite frankly, making the characters Bhaalspawn is just as stereotypical as any other storytelling clichée, as it kind of puts the player characters into a chosen one/destined role.
And if the DM does make being a Bhaalspawn a big part of the story, then you're back at "The players will have to make sure nobody that doesn't already know and explicitly trust them finds out about their heritage, because people might get the wrong idea about them, even if they haven't done anything yet."

So either, the DM makes it inconsequential, at which point I'd ask why to include it at all, especially because the players are new to the FR setting and telling them their character is a child of Bhaal means next to nothing to them, or the DM makes it a big deal, which could be frustrating especially to newer players.