The Paladin nerf in the new players handbook

[Jonny Boy]

Smite now costs :

- an action
- bonus action
- spell slot

I can see why they did this for multiclass paladin / casters like bards and sorcerers who have a large amount of spells but for single class paladins this is a huge nerf as they dont have many spell slots anyway.

Paladin imo has gone from S or A-tier to probably C or D tier now especially when you consider they lose there bonus action.

[jonnin]

They should have tested before doing, to see if it feels right for pure and MC both. I would think they did that... but this makes the one thing the class had cost more than a nuclear bomb spell. Its just not that good... I mean a cleric can touch you with cause wounds rank 5 and do as much or more and still get its bonus action. Making it a spell (uses action and slot) seems OK but bonus action too seems ... weird, no other activity takes that away.

[Hobocop]

Saying it costs an action is a bit of a misrepresentation, since you've always needed to land a melee attack with 2014 Divine Smite in order to activate it.

Originally posted by jonnin:

They should have tested before doing, to see if it feels right for pure and MC both. I would think they did that... but this makes the one thing the class had cost more than a nuclear bomb spell. Its just not that good... I mean a cleric can touch you with cause wounds rank 5 and do as much or more and still get its bonus action. Making it a spell (uses action and slot) seems OK but bonus action too seems ... weird, no other activity takes that away.

This is literally the same cost as any other Smite-type spell from 2014 or otherwise. Except 2024 smite spells don't take Concentration anymore, so a paladin is actually allowed to use other spells.

[it's shoe]

Smite has always cost a spell slot.

Losing the bonus action is new, but this probably takes them from being just far and away the hands down best non-multiclass non-minmax class in the game to being one of the best.

You can't drop multiple smites a turn or smite on reaction. That's probably fine.

[AsianGirlLover]

Time to add 3 levels of Rogue to the build, I guess.

[Mike Garrison]

It has always cost an action. It has always cost a spell slot. Apparently now the only thing it costs extra is a bonus action? I think that seems reasonable. In particular, what it means is that you won't be able to double-smite in the same round using extra attack.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Smite shouldn't cost spell slots at all.

It should be triggered by some something - crit is the obvious choice, but then this just turns Paladins into "critadins".

What if Paladins automatically Smite every time they make a spellcheck vs. the target's saving throw (i.e. when you attack, you also make a spell save roll to see if you "smite" them, which if successful, adds some number of radiant dmg dice based on your Paladin level)?

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Cassandra:

Smite shouldn't cost spell slots at all.

Why? They seem pretty powerful to be a cantrip-level ability, especially if they don't cost an action but instead ride along for free on a regular attack action.

IIRC, you hate warlocks, but aren't you kind of asking for Paladins to be warlocks here? Relying on a single, non-spell-slot feature that they just spam as much as possible?

[jonnin]

Every attack.... based off saving throw... that would work if you gave an alignment adjustment to the saving throw DC, where the more evil (DM decides) the target, the lower and the more good the target, the higher (to near impossible for really good guys).

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Cassandra:

Smite shouldn't cost spell slots at all.

Why? They seem pretty powerful to be a cantrip-level ability, especially if they don't cost an action but instead ride along for free on a regular attack action.

IIRC, you hate warlocks, but aren't you kind of asking for Paladins to be warlocks here? Relying on a single, non-spell-slot feature that they just spam as much as possible?

The point is that D&D has fallen into the trap of making everything a boring 'resource bar', and this isn't a good thing.

Take the magic systems behind Ars Magica or Mage: The Ascension for comparison.

They are 'consequentialist' systems by design (although they also retain some resource bar semblance): using magic in these systems comes with a 'consequence'.

Smite shouldn't be a 'resource', it should be something that occurs due to the zeal with which you pursue your Oath.

[NorthernDavid]

Then do not fall into the trap of walking into Hasbro/WotC's walled garden of RPGs,. Seek out the others, find a system that works well for you, and adapt settings to your own games.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Cassandra:

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Why? They seem pretty powerful to be a cantrip-level ability, especially if they don't cost an action but instead ride along for free on a regular attack action.

IIRC, you hate warlocks, but aren't you kind of asking for Paladins to be warlocks here? Relying on a single, non-spell-slot feature that they just spam as much as possible?

The point is that D&D has fallen into the trap of making everything a boring 'resource bar', and this isn't a good thing.

Take the magic systems behind Ars Magica or Mage: The Ascension for comparison.

They are 'consequentialist' systems by design (although they also retain some resource bar semblance): using magic in these systems comes with a 'consequence'.

Smite shouldn't be a 'resource', it should be something that occurs due to the zeal with which you pursue your Oath.

So ... you would rather playing some game other than D&D. OK. Lots of them to play.

In the context of D&D, this doesn't fit at all.

[brendan_in_china]

The 2024 WotC Devs know best. They did this for your own good. Your game will be better. 2024 sales prove how good they are.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Cassandra:

The point is that D&D has fallen into the trap of making everything a boring 'resource bar', and this isn't a good thing.

Take the magic systems behind Ars Magica or Mage: The Ascension for comparison.

They are 'consequentialist' systems by design (although they also retain some resource bar semblance): using magic in these systems comes with a 'consequence'.

Smite shouldn't be a 'resource', it should be something that occurs due to the zeal with which you pursue your Oath.

So ... you would rather playing some game other than D&D. OK. Lots of them to play.

In the context of D&D, this doesn't fit at all.

Paladins weren't always this way...

The point is that all of the Paladin's abilities could have been worked in some way without simply tying them to the same generic resource bar every other class uses...

[Psychotic_Frog]

Most of the changes are ridiculous. Like removing half-races. Sadly since it turned more and more mainstream in the last couple years, casual people will buy it in bulk anyway and they'll think they made great changes.

RIP Paladin.

[NorthernDavid]

Nah I'd rather play an older edition of D&D. It's still D&D it's also less expensive (at least for me) as I already have paper copies of the books. And I don't have to worry about new changes I don't like since I'm using the older rules, if there is something I do like I can always grab the idea and make it work with the older rules.