Sacred Flame - it’spossible to find a int version?

[Kamuizin]

Among evocation cantrips, this is the only one that doesn’t use attack rol, but save to work.

The only cantrip that is an evocation and use saving throw instead of attack roll, to benefit from potent cantrip and empowered evocation is sacred flame.

But afaik, cleric based versions of this cantrip while benefiting from both features, use wisdom to define the DC of the saving throw, thus screwing the combo.

Since spell sniper only provide attacking roll cantrips, the only non cleric version viable comes from magical secrets of Bards and thus is a cha cantrip.

Magic initiate: cleric, unfortunally, also make the cantrip a cleric one, instead of the class that pick it.

Is there any way to make it a int cantrip? This is not even near something overpowered, just an attempt to make this cantrip work better.

[Estevan Valladares]

Afaik, there are always an equivalent spell that has the same overall mechanic but for different uses, if there is the need for one. But some spells are indeed particular of a set of classes for the sake of balance, EG: Eldritch Blast is basically a "hando ken" of DnD, but it is made so Warlocks have a spell that scales and has versatile use while impossible to cast anything "else", and while nothing else might help.

Sacred Flame is almost the same things, but for classes dealing with "sacred stuff" instead of "eldritch" stuff.

And overpower is a term that has no exact meaning around these forums. I would say that Eldritch blast and Sacred Flame are already starting being OP just for being spells that do not consume spell slots. Imagine if you had a "powerful, all hitting, bypassing, varied stat" spell that on top of it all, you can cast all the time ? That indeed would look insanely OP.

[Kamuizin]

Well, almost everyone can get EB or any attacking roll cantrip based on their class attribute, through spell sniper, thus this doesn’t sound like a balance issue to me.

Without entering in the semantic of words here, with all due respect it’s a matter of common sense what is overpowered or not, and sacred flame above everything else, is anything but overpowered!

I’m paying 10 levels of a single specialization + a specific feat (if it exist) or another price for this sacred flame to always hit with 3d4 + int mod (at lvl 10+, remember). This is not a 3d10 + 2x cha mod EB, that unlike int can go to 24 + critical build doing 100+ damage.

[voidlich666]

Not in base game. Hell, even in the original tabletop 5e, the only way to change the "stat" of a class-exclusive cantrip was to take it with Pact of the Tome and make it run on CHA.

[Estevan Valladares]

Originally posted by Kamuizin:

Well, almost everyone can get EB or any attacking roll cantrip based on their class attribute, through spell sniper, thus this doesn’t sound like a balance issue to me.

Without entering in the semantic of words here, with all due respect it’s a matter of common sense what is overpowered or not, and sacred flame above everything else, is anything but overpowered!

I’m paying 10 levels of a single specialization + a specific feat (if it exist) or another price for this sacred flame to always hit with 3d4 + int mod (at lvl 10+, remember). This is not a 3d10 + 2x cha mod EB, that unlike int can go to 24 + critical build doing 100+ damage.

Balance is not "have or have not" it is about choice.
When you get something from feats, that means you dont get something else.
And if you get something that is not native to your class, you dont build up on it.

Like you can get Eldritch blast, but you wont get repelling or agonizing blast unless you are a warlock, multiclassing or not.

And it is very strange to argue in a game based on textbooks that we "wont enter semantics", because the rules of the game are entirely reliant on the semantics they are conveyed with.

[guard65]

Sadly, Sacred Flame actually says nothing about cleric or wisdom in it. However I have found them rig the DC to an ability. For instance the Feat for Cleric Int is SelectSpells(2f43a103-5bf1-4534-b14f-663decc0c525,2,0,MIClericCantrips,Wisdom,,AlwaysPrepared,,114e7aee-d1d4-4371-8d90-8a2080592faf). They tied it to Wisdom so your stuck.

I have noticed however that if I multi-class and pick Cleric first then pick Wizard second that those spells not force to declared wisdom will use INT instead of wisdom. Sadly if I have a Wizard and take one level of Cleric after the fact it sticks me with Wisdom DC from then on. It is a real pain if not a bug.

If you know how to mod you can just use the same method to declare the preferred stat.

Below is the spell data Sacred Flame:

new entry "Target_SacredFlame"
type "SpellData"
data "SpellType" "Target"
data "Level" "0"
data "SpellSchool" "Evocation"
data "TargetRadius" "18"
data "SpellRoll" "not SavingThrow(Ability.Dexterity, SourceSpellDC())"
data "SpellSuccess" "DealDamage(LevelMapValue(D8Cantrip),Radiant,Magical)"
data "SpellFail" "IF(HasPassive('PotentCantrip',context.Source)):DealDamage((LevelMapValue(D8Cantrip))/2,Radiant,Magical)"

[Emilia Tempest]

Originally posted by Kamuizin:

Among evocation cantrips, this is the only one that doesn’t use attack rol, but save to work.

The only cantrip that is an evocation and use saving throw instead of attack roll, to benefit from potent cantrip and empowered evocation is sacred flame.

But afaik, cleric based versions of this cantrip while benefiting from both features, use wisdom to define the DC of the saving throw, thus screwing the combo.

Since spell sniper only provide attacking roll cantrips, the only non cleric version viable comes from magical secrets of Bards and thus is a cha cantrip.

Magic initiate: cleric, unfortunally, also make the cantrip a cleric one, instead of the class that pick it.

Is there any way to make it a int cantrip? This is not even near something overpowered, just an attempt to make this cantrip work better.

Despite the Potent Cantrip being gained from the Evocation Wizard subclass, it actually works on all cantrips, not just Evocation cantrips
So you can have Acid Splash and Poison Spray
Vicious Mockery also works with it, but that is only available for Warlocks or Bards, therefore requires Charisma (so the same problem as Sacred Flame)

Spell Sniper doesnt only work on Cantrips, it also works on ANY spells that have an attack roll over an saving throw (like Scorching Ray for example)

Another thing, while the level 10 Empowered Evocation will say "any Evocation spells" it also includes cantrips like Eldritch Blast, it will also work on spells that dont use INT to calculate their spell DC (like if you got a spell from the Sorcerer for example, so you use CHA for the DC and add your INT to the damage)

[Gaius]

I don't think so. On the other hand, this combo requires lv 10, and you'll pretty much never have to cas a cantrip at lv 10+ with an evocation wizard anyway, so...

[Emilia Tempest]

Originally posted by guard65:

I have noticed however that if I multi-class and pick Cleric first then pick Wizard second that those spells not force to declared wisdom will use INT instead of wisdom. Sadly if I have a Wizard and take one level of Cleric after the fact it sticks me with Wisdom DC from then on. It is a real pain if not a bug.

Did exactly what you did, the combat log still says it uses the wisdom modifier, (it also shows the % being the same before choosing wizard after level 1 and after), not intelligence modifier. Its either a random bug, or if you can do it consistently its likely a mod in your game doing it (even if you disable some mods in the load order they can still affect the game)

Even with 14 WIS and 16 INT it still uses WIS for the DC so its not working off of what is "highest" either
Proof here:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3308621514
I dont think I have to show I chose cleric first and then wizard, you can see in the bottom left corner the life cleric symbol and you can see the arcane charges in my resource bar, I leveled to level 6 evocation just to make sure its not randomly changing Sacred Flame to Int

[Kamuizin]

Originally posted by guard65:

Sadly, Sacred Flame actually says nothing about cleric or wisdom in it. However I have found them rig the DC to an ability. For instance the Feat for Cleric Int is SelectSpells(2f43a103-5bf1-4534-b14f-663decc0c525,2,0,MIClericCantrips,Wisdom,,AlwaysPrepared,,114e7aee-d1d4-4371-8d90-8a2080592faf). They tied it to Wisdom so your stuck.

I have noticed however that if I multi-class and pick Cleric first then pick Wizard second that those spells not force to declared wisdom will use INT instead of wisdom. Sadly if I have a Wizard and take one level of Cleric after the fact it sticks me with Wisdom DC from then on. It is a real pain if not a bug.

If you know how to mod you can just use the same method to declare the preferred stat.

Below is the spell data Sacred Flame:

new entry "Target_SacredFlame"
type "SpellData"
data "SpellType" "Target"
data "Level" "0"
data "SpellSchool" "Evocation"
data "TargetRadius" "18"
data "SpellRoll" "not SavingThrow(Ability.Dexterity, SourceSpellDC())"
data "SpellSuccess" "DealDamage(LevelMapValue(D8Cantrip),Radiant,Magical)"
data "SpellFail" "IF(HasPassive('PotentCantrip',context.Source)):DealDamage((LevelMapValue(D8Cantrip))/2,Radiant,Magical)"

Damn!

Does the other sources of sacred flame have the same stringent? Cleric initiate and sanctified stalker (Ranger)?

Bard route, that make them use cha, requires 6 levels at least on bard and thus don’t work for an evocation wizard.

Originally posted by Emilia Tempest:

Originally posted by Kamuizin:

Among evocation cantrips, this is the only one that doesn’t use attack rol, but save to work.

The only cantrip that is an evocation and use saving throw instead of attack roll, to benefit from potent cantrip and empowered evocation is sacred flame.

But afaik, cleric based versions of this cantrip while benefiting from both features, use wisdom to define the DC of the saving throw, thus screwing the combo.

Since spell sniper only provide attacking roll cantrips, the only non cleric version viable comes from magical secrets of Bards and thus is a cha cantrip.

Magic initiate: cleric, unfortunally, also make the cantrip a cleric one, instead of the class that pick it.

Is there any way to make it a int cantrip? This is not even near something overpowered, just an attempt to make this cantrip work better.

Despite the Potent Cantrip being gained from the Evocation Wizard subclass, it actually works on all cantrips, not just Evocation cantrips
So you can have Acid Splash and Poison Spray
Vicious Mockery also works with it, but that is only available for Warlocks or Bards, therefore requires Charisma (so the same problem as Sacred Flame)

Spell Sniper doesnt only work on Cantrips, it also works on ANY spells that have an attack roll over an saving throw (like Scorching Ray for example)

Another thing, while the level 10 Empowered Evocation will say "any Evocation spells" it also includes cantrips like Eldritch Blast, it will also work on spells that dont use INT to calculate their spell DC (like if you got a spell from the Sorcerer for example, so you use CHA for the DC and add your INT to the damage)

Problem isn’t the subclass feats, both apply to sacred flame. Problem is the DC of the spell, it use my wisdom modifier. So either i put a lot of wisdom in my evocation cleric, or i get used to do half damage with the cantrip (using potent cantrip)

[DeMasked]

No you can't get INT Sacred Flame.

You can either get gear to make it less likely for enemies to pass the check or have them get Disadvantage on the check.

Sacred Flame is kinda trash initially even though it ignores Darkness, certain obstacles in the way, close range and Elevation Disparity. You can get it to be pretty good though especially if you have the explosion radiant damage + debuff items.

You could technically multiclass into say Eldritch Knight and go Dual Wield to poke an enemy with a bonus action attack for the Eldritch Strike debuff, Sacred Flame the enemy who gets disadvantage and then poke again with a bonus action due to War Magic.

10-11 Fighter Eldritch Knight and then 1-2 Cleric . Keep your INT at 10 or 8 and invest more into WIS while your choice spells would be mostly for Utility so having low INT wouldn't matter.

Feat into Dual Wielder you can use that one Legendary Mace you get from the Monastery for the Offhand Attacks or something - could be an interesting build though good? No idea.

Again... there are items to make Sacred Flame more easy to hit enemies. You might be able to make use of them as a Wizard.


It could be interesting to go 10 Wizard and 2 Warlock and then Spell Sniper Feat to get an INT based Eldritch Blast. High INT and CHA combined with Agonising Blast, Empowered Evocation and Potent Cantrip could be interesting.

Each Blast with high INT and CHA could end up with a lot of damage and you will always be dealing damage. Armour of Shadows for free Mage Armour could help with less Dexterity (pick up Alert Feat for better initiative), Human Race for innate shield use. Probably better Eldritch Blast builds I'm sure, just theorycrafting.

edit: Sacred Flame isn't an Evocation Cantrip and doesn't get Empowered Evocation bonus.

[anachoret]

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