The Emperor is a piece of work (heavy spoilers, like finish the game first please)

[Romnia]

On my first ever play-through I was going into that first encounter at the start of act 3 with an "oh well, let's not be racist here"-mindset, and he seemed like an okay dude.
Sure, he killed his dragon bestie and lied to me but I understood the circumstances. On my 2nd play-through I decide to resist his influence and oh lookie here:
Not only does he whine, he also didn't have this romantic/yearning relationship with Stelmane I first thought he had. My guy dominated her mind until she broke. I thought she just got the dementia or whatever, but it's never that simple.
When he revealed those memories it really hit me just how sinister the guy is.
Sure, you can excuse him for acting for the greater good but does that justify his cold-hearted and calculated nature?
Any goodness and vulnurability he shows the player has a high likelyhood of just being more mindgames. If I remember that one scene correctly he admits himself that he'd control us like he did Stelmane had he known we wouldn't coorporate- Correct me if I'm wrong but I do remember something along those lines at least.

Another good motivation to free Orpheus is that the final fight is much less annoying when it's the Emperor and dream guardians you're up against.

I just needed to vent my thoughts on him somewhere. I got like 300 hours in this game and no one to talk about it with.

[hermit0wl]

Yeah, the Emperor pretty much sucks. Omeluum is the real squid bro :)

[DeMasked]

Emperor ultimately only cares about himself and gaining power which is reflective of either how he was before he changed or some influence while being enthralled by the Netherbrain.

Omeluum is proof that Mindflayers aren't inherently evil but have to be influenced to an extent in which case for him, his magic protected his mind from being influenced. While he still tries to survive he isn't looking for power.

[God Queen 158]

The Emperor is a great example of how trust isn't transactional or coincidental. He manipulates existing circumstances to get you to believe he's on your side. If you never test him to see if he has ulterior motives, he does a good job at coming off as polite, agreeable, reliable, and even relateable. But it's a good costume.

Doubly so, because he needs you - he actually can pretend to be your ally because you play a necessary piece in his plan for freedom and power. His "feelings" for Stelmane are genuine in the sense that he really does miss the efficient dynamic between mindflayer and thrall.

The mindflayer lore and interactions in Act 3 are some of the only things that keep me going to completing it.

[DeMasked]

Originally posted by God Queen 158:

His "feelings" for Stelmane are genuine in the sense that he really does miss the efficient dynamic between mindflayer and thrall.

I think that he more or less misses Ansur (or has an echo of that feeling) but had to make Stelmane a thrall because after Ansur's "betrayal" he has to control others in order to better survive and stay in power. He couldn't make the TAV and the others a thrall because of the protection given by Orpheus or perhaps some resistance via the Tadpole which is why he has to go for manipulation.

The dynamic between mindflayer and thrall gives off the illusion of having normal relationships that he would've had before changing.

[Romnia]

It's scary that you legit cannot tell whether he means some of the things he says.
How much of Balduran is left? Or maybe it's him and not the mindflayer we need to fear? His mind expanded, "evolved" as he put it, but how much of this cold manipulative personality can you blame on this evolution?
If he built a whole city and killed a dragon, his best friend, to stay alive then he must've been ambitious if not selfish to begin with.
There's no telling whether he truly loved Stelmane for the illusion that her enthrallment created or just because she was an effective puppet - maybe it's both. Maybe he just plays a role to seem more human than he really is.

Imo while he didn't lose his sense of self to the mindflayer, he did lose his soul or most of it. He knows of Balduran, knows what he felt, saw and did but no more than that. He's disconnected from the "warmth" that a human heart bestows if that makes sense, but is still able to imitate and understand it.

Omeluum might be the same, perhaps he's different and his soul remained due to his magic, but what's for sure is that he knows how to show sincerity and his actions speak for it. He knows not to play mindgames and might still grasp this warmth that is out of the Emperor's reach.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Romnia:

It's scary that you legit cannot tell whether he means some of the things he says.
How much of Balduran is left? Or maybe it's him and not the mindflayer we need to fear? His mind expanded, "evolved" as he put it, but how much of this cold manipulative personality can you blame on this evolution?
If he built a whole city and killed a dragon, his best friend, to stay alive then he must've been ambitious if not selfish to begin with.
There's no telling whether he truly loved Stelmane for the illusion that her enthrallment created or just because she was an effective puppet - maybe it's both. Maybe he just plays a role to seem more human than he really is.

Imo while he didn't lose his sense of self to the mindflayer, he did lose his soul or most of it. He knows of Balduran, knows what he felt, saw and did but no more than that. He's disconnected from the "warmth" that a human heart bestows if that makes sense, but is still able to imitate and understand it.

Omeluum might be the same, perhaps he's different and his soul remained due to his magic, but what's for sure is that he knows how to show sincerity and his actions speak for it. He knows not to play mindgames and might still grasp this warmth that is out of the Emperor's reach.

The Emperor is not Balduran. It's the Mind Flayer that has some of Balduran's memories and seemingly believes it's Balduran. But it's not Balduran.

That's my view, anyway.

[Pooh]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

The Emperor is not Balduran. It's the Mind Flayer that has some of Balduran's memories and seemingly believes it's Balduran. But it's not Balduran.

That's my view, anyway.

No, I'm quite certain he IS Balduran. Ansur goes into great detail about it personally. He tried to find a cure for him and sh!t, but the Emprah felt he didn't need a 'cure'. Ansur tried to mercy kill him, he acted in self-defence.

He is very manipulative though and... kinda creepy in a way, but the stakes are monumentally high and he's been getting bombarded with psychic molestation literally the entire game; I imagine he's lonely, but also on a mission.


It's good writing, I just wish the final boss fight was better.

[arador]

i think there is a lesser evil and greater evil.
lesser evil is to help emperor
greater evil is to help orpheus
orpheus may seem like a good guy but he is a gith, his vision is to kill vlaakith, eradicate all mindflayers, enslave all humanoids. he is not a good guy, a honorable man yes but he'd enslave you and your world if he could. and he will be able to do that if you release him.
on the other hand, emperor manipulates tav/urge, kills his best friend, enslave stelmane just for his own survival. i'm sure most of us like lae'zel, would you let lae'zel kill you if you had no chance to convince her to drop the knife or would you attack her? emperor is not a good guy too but he is like a bee. if you don't threaten him he will do no harm to you.
and i think he enthralled stelmane just after she discovered he was a mindflayer because i can't think of a more logical reason to stelmane's portrait on the walls of emperor's hideout.

remember this: mindflayers do have souls and they do have feelings. difference is their souls are not from our universe and that's why withers can't see their souls and their feelings are not same with us.

[cl656]

He's only manipulating you if you don't trust him. Otherwise the writing treats it as if he is 100% legit with nothing suggesting it otherwise but your own head canon. He is basically written to cater to what the player wants his motives to be.

completely ruins him as a character imo.

[Brian_the_Brute]

It has no soul and has given up on any ties to feelings or morality. It is pretty much now a brain vampire.

The story is kind of weak here as originally the idea was to have the worm in your brain manifest as an imaginary woman called Daisy. She would try to seduce you to give up on your quest and go live with her "down by the river", hence the song in the game that no longer has any real ties with the plot.

[Romnia]

Originally posted by arador:

i think there is a lesser evil and greater evil.
lesser evil is to help emperor
greater evil is to help orpheus
orpheus may seem like a good guy but he is a gith, his vision is to kill vlaakith, eradicate all mindflayers, enslave all humanoids. he is not a good guy, a honorable man yes but he'd enslave you and your world if he could. and he will be able to do that if you release him.
on the other hand, emperor manipulates tav/urge, kills his best friend, enslave stelmane just for his own survival. i'm sure most of us like lae'zel, would you let lae'zel kill you if you had no chance to convince her to drop the knife or would you attack her? emperor is not a good guy too but he is like a bee. if you don't threaten him he will do no harm to you.
and i think he enthralled stelmane just after she discovered he was a mindflayer because i can't think of a more logical reason to stelmane's portrait on the walls of emperor's hideout.

remember this: mindflayers do have souls and they do have feelings. difference is their souls are not from our universe and that's why withers can't see their souls and their feelings are not same with us.

I read up on mindflayers again and yes, seems they do or at least I believe that could be the case. Withers also comments on how it's surprising that he can still feel the soul of Karlach/Tav/Emperor. Makes me wonder if he's able to see the souls of githyanki people since they're also from another plane, though he must if he can ressurect Lae'zel, no?

And yea Orpheus isn't a good guy either, which is why to get rid of both you first betray the Emperor, then let Orpheus mindflayer-fy and taste your blade in a mercy killing when the fighting is over. 100% effective alien pest control. They used the party now they're used back.

Anyway, I don't think the Emperor being stressed and having these excuses justifies the extent he goes to just to lie. Why hide Orpheus' existence and his real identity from tav for all this time, even though they defied Vlaakith? No matter how much trust you give him, he doesn't reveal any more of himself besides stuffing his tentacles into tav's where-the-sun-dont-shine given the chance.
You may not notice at first but whenever he talks about Stelmane he's VERY careful about how he words his sentences. At surface level it sounds like fondness and nostalgia, but he never specifies or talks about Stelmane as a person, which is why I'm so convinced he controlled her from the start. He says that Stelmane trusted him, that they were a great team (because she had no choice but to under his control) but he can't tell you what type of person she used to be.

I won't lie, he deserves some respect for fighting against the dead three all this time. He's the lesser evil, but evil none the less.
Also, you can kinda see in the different endings how he doesn't care what exactly we do to the brain. If we choose to control it with him he shows no qualms about turning the whole party, who he supposedly bonded with, into his thralls. He's more concerned about dealing with the githyanki and how that would endanger him. It's always been about his own survival, hasn't it?

[hermit0wl]

Originally posted by cl656:

He's only manipulating you if you don't trust him. Otherwise the writing treats it as if he is 100% legit with nothing suggesting it otherwise but your own head canon. He is basically written to cater to what the player wants his motives to be.

completely ruins him as a character imo.

So...the fact that he can manipulate Tav successfully is bad writing?

[arador]

Originally posted by Romnia:

Originally posted by arador:

i think there is a lesser evil and greater evil.
lesser evil is to help emperor
greater evil is to help orpheus
orpheus may seem like a good guy but he is a gith, his vision is to kill vlaakith, eradicate all mindflayers, enslave all humanoids. he is not a good guy, a honorable man yes but he'd enslave you and your world if he could. and he will be able to do that if you release him.
on the other hand, emperor manipulates tav/urge, kills his best friend, enslave stelmane just for his own survival. i'm sure most of us like lae'zel, would you let lae'zel kill you if you had no chance to convince her to drop the knife or would you attack her? emperor is not a good guy too but he is like a bee. if you don't threaten him he will do no harm to you.
and i think he enthralled stelmane just after she discovered he was a mindflayer because i can't think of a more logical reason to stelmane's portrait on the walls of emperor's hideout.

remember this: mindflayers do have souls and they do have feelings. difference is their souls are not from our universe and that's why withers can't see their souls and their feelings are not same with us.

I read up on mindflayers again and yes, seems they do or at least I believe that could be the case. Withers also comments on how it's surprising that he can still feel the soul of Karlach/Tav/Emperor. Makes me wonder if he's able to see the souls of githyanki people since they're also from another plane, though he must if he can ressurect Lae'zel, no?

And yea Orpheus isn't a good guy either, which is why to get rid of both you first betray the Emperor, then let Orpheus mindflayer-fy and taste your blade in a mercy killing when the fighting is over. 100% effective alien pest control. They used the party now they're used back.

Anyway, I don't think the Emperor being stressed and having these excuses justifies the extent he goes to just to lie. Why hide Orpheus' existence and his real identity from tav for all this time, even though they defied Vlaakith? No matter how much trust you give him, he doesn't reveal any more of himself besides stuffing his tentacles into tav's where-the-sun-dont-shine given the chance.
You may not notice at first but whenever he talks about Stelmane he's VERY careful about how he words his sentences. At surface level it sounds like fondness and nostalgia, but he never specifies or talks about Stelmane as a person, which is why I'm so convinced he controlled her from the start. He says that Stelmane trusted him, that they were a great team (because she had no choice but to under his control) but he can't tell you what type of person she used to be.

I won't lie, he deserves some respect for fighting against the dead three all this time. He's the lesser evil, but evil none the less.
Also, you can kinda see in the different endings how he doesn't care what exactly we do to the brain. If we choose to control it with him he shows no qualms about turning the whole party, who he supposedly bonded with, into his thralls. He's more concerned about dealing with the githyanki and how that would endanger him. It's always been about his own survival, hasn't it?

yes, you are right. best thing to do is to get rid of them. but on a blind run, if i was the tav and if i didn't know the consequences of releasing orheus, i'd choose to side with emperor. because even narrator says that we can feel orpheus's fury even when he was chained by the infernal chains. i couldn't be sure if he'd help.
but i like how you think on this matter. if you'd have to choose between lesser evil and the greater evil, you'd rather not choose at all. good choice.
btw i've heard of a theory about githyankis. that they were humans but evolved to githyanki in time during their enslavement. mindflayer's doing i guess. that might be the reason their souls are visible to withers. after all githyanki origins are lost even to the githyanki. i don't think they are as alien as mindflayers.

[Detective Costeau]

Originally posted by Brian_the_Brute:

The story is kind of weak here as originally the idea was to have the worm in your brain manifest as an imaginary woman called Daisy. She would try to seduce you to give up on your quest and go live with her "down by the river", hence the song in the game that no longer has any real ties with the plot.

Eh, I won't argue the strength of the writing as that's a very subjective judgement (personally I think the Emperor works well as a manipulative villain once you realize that's what he is), but I think a lot of people who don't like the current version are assuming the Daisy plotline would have been good, or at least better, without much evidence. We'll never know, of course, but I think there's good reason to doubt that.
From what we saw of Daisy in EA, there's basically 2 glaring flaws in that story that I'd be willing to bet were big reasons for the writers to change it.

1) It was incredibly, blaringly obvious that Daisy did not have your best intentions in mind, and that going along with it was an absolutely terrible idea. You'd basically have to be a complete clueless goober to go along with it.

2) Let's say Daisy does successfully manipulate you. Okay, so now you're controlled by a mind flayer. Game over.
There's really no way to continue from there without the writers just pulling crap out of their arses to save you from the consequences of your own stupidity. So you've basically got a major story element where you get exactly one choice, because going along with Daisy would effectively end the game. A choice where one of your options is just a game over isn't really very interesting.

I really do think changing this was the right call.

[cl656]

Originally posted by hermit0wl:

Originally posted by cl656:

He's only manipulating you if you don't trust him. Otherwise the writing treats it as if he is 100% legit with nothing suggesting it otherwise but your own head canon. He is basically written to cater to what the player wants his motives to be.

completely ruins him as a character imo.

So...the fact that he can manipulate Tav successfully is bad writing?

That isn't what I said.