Zhentarim Basement on honor mode shows how bad roleplaying in this game actually is

[Slip]

So I am playing on honor mode, and for now I really hate it, most checks are like a trap. You either succeed a check and its fine, or you fail a check and ♥♥♥♥ explodes, there is no roleplaying involved whatsoever.

And this place shows it best, the lady that questions you what you are doing here, I failed a detect though checks, and it went instantly to combat, even though I had other means to convince here, but ofc game doesnt give you any other options (and I am not counting inspiration).

So what happens after I fail detect thought? She yells aaaa MAGIC, like first of all, why would a rogue be able to detect magic? Second, she is across the chasm, I am 0 threat to hear, so why cant I continue conversation? Especially since I have the items she wants.
No, the best thing to do for a zenith agent, who are evil, and wouldnt give a ♥♥♥♥ even if you did some shady ♥♥♥♥, they blow up their own supplies to stop me from approaching....

Larian failed to give us different choices for many things, which is what a dm would do, most failed checks ending in fight, is just bad, boring and not in spirit of dnd at all.

I much preferred nwn2 way of doing it, dice was reserved for combat, and rest was you either have enough points or not, it might not be the best way, but it sure as hell beats this.

Game is also extremely easy for a dnd game, so playing honor mode for harder combat is also a fail.
I also had bugs with stuff not triggering in combat, like the part with cave and gnolls, not triggering convo for me to be able to mind control him, owl cub, etc.

[The Yeen Queen]

Originally posted by Slip:

Originally posted by Night Foxx:

How do you confuse A GIANT ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ IRON FLASK THAT YOU HAVE TO HOLD IN BOTH HANDS with an amulet?! Also it's a spectator, not a beholder. Slightly less deadly. Also if you've opened the chest she's going to attack you anyway because the person who hired her to deliver the chest will kill her for it. Or did you not read the note on the dead guy where the gnolls attacked by the bridge?

Bad eyesight, big ass screen, small icons. Does it matter, we both understand which item we mean.

For ♥♥♥♥'s sake. You never even EXAMINED the thing? ( Also the description of the item is an "iron flask". The word "amulet" isn't anywhere near it.... ) If you know what you did and didn't do the examination then you've clearly been just reading spoilers or watching videos.

And, yes, now that you've clarified it, we know what you mean. But we didn't until then.

And sure she can kill me then, but lemme show her the flask.

YOU INVADED HER ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ MIND. "Retaliate with deadly force" is a perfectly reasonable reaction. How many more times is this going to need to be stressed before you get it?

[Slip]

Originally posted by Night Foxx:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

There's legit so much wrong with the op:ed here that I HAVE to assume it's a bit.

This post just sounds like the guy who was whining about the game being "too easy" and turns out has never once beaten the game. This dude hasn't beaten it either, by the way. Only has 19 achievements, in fact. Now achievement numbers don't reflect skill necessarily, but you get more than that by accident just playing the game normally. He's missed so many just on the way to Act 3 that he clearly rushed his way through.

Oh, and like the other guy, he's got well over 100 hours of play in a game he supposedly hates.

There were alot of bugs in begining, with achievements, I didnt get the one to kill the devil on ship, even thought I did, and probably many more got bugged.

Game is very easy, and its a big minus for me. Like I said, you are free to check achievements for my other games, if you think im bluffing with difficulty. I play every crpg I can get my hands on, including euro junk, I dont like everything about it, but there is just enough for me to play.

[The Yeen Queen]

Originally posted by Slip:

Originally posted by Night Foxx:

"That sensitive"? Once again, YOU VIOLATED HER ON A DEEPLY PERSONAL LEVEL. That's not being "sensitive". Especially given it's someone whose entire career relies on protecting secrets. And you just start digging around in her brain.

I disagree, but this is a personal view, we both can be right and wrong, depending what the writers wanted her to be.

This isn't a matter of opinion or personal views, dude. You are objectively ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ wrong. Like there is no deeper violation of someone's bodily autonomy than invading their mind.

[The Yeen Queen]

Originally posted by Slip:

Game is very easy, and its a big minus for me.

With the level of utter incompetence this thread is showing us you have with this game, you're either trolling or just....well, I don't want another ban so I'm not going to elaborate.

[Slip]

Originally posted by Night Foxx:

Originally posted by Slip:

Bad eyesight, big ass screen, small icons. Does it matter, we both understand which item we mean.

For ♥♥♥♥'s sake. You never even EXAMINED the thing? ( Also the description of the item is an "iron flask". The word "amulet" isn't anywhere near it.... ) If you know what you did and didn't do the examination then you've clearly been just reading spoilers or watching videos.

And, yes, now that you've clarified it, we know what you mean. But we didn't until then.

And sure she can kill me then, but lemme show her the flask.

YOU INVADED HER ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ MIND. "Retaliate with deadly force" is a perfectly reasonable reaction. How many more times is this going to need to be stressed before you get it?

But they dont retaliate, until I pass the traps, so she isnt really that butthurt over it, she just doesnt think im worth her time, which I could change with the flask. Or info about her group, and so on.
I would yell across the chasm that info, she would hear it regardless of her feelings in that moment.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by Slip:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

They'd probably be even MORE sensitive about this stuff, given how many horrors can (and do) invade your mind.

In pretty much all previous crpgs, zents were ruthless, and crazy, I just dont see them giving ♥♥♥♥ about fail detect thought check.

Right, so in an effort to at least give some charitability, you need to sit down and do some reading.

Basically put, the Zhents are like Faerun's mafia. ( https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Zhentarim , https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zhentarim ).

Now, I don't know about you, but from what I can recall about criminal organizations, they REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when someone comes in with a wire and starts probing for information uninvited. If a person comes in unannounced, starts asking too many questions, and tries to dig into sh*t the bosses would think they have no right to know about, it makes total sense in their minds to ICE THE F*CKER!

Now, that flask (which I specifically didn't want to mention to see just how dedicated you were to calling it an amulet) is important for two reasons:
1) It's Zhent property: you shouldn't be holding it in their eyes.
2) That cargo was confidential. There was a kill order placed on anyone who opened the chest.

So, holding the flask, which is Zhent property, that has a KoS order attached to it, makes you and anyone who sees you a target. A black mark.

This means it wasn't the bargaining chip you thought it was, because by virtue of showing her the flask, you basically would have signed her own death warrant.

All in all: either you REALLY have no idea who you're dealing with or why they operate the way they do, or you're a child complaining about "Waah they said no takesies backsies", on a game mode specifically designed NOT to have savescumming, for actions which a normal person would plainly see were stupid and and reckless.

Or you're a troll looking for clicks. Which isn't entirely rules out either because you're still going on about "muh opshuns" (there's so many ways to get into the Zhent hideout in Act I that it's honestly impressive how you managed to piss them off before getting to Zarys face to face, meaning you had to go out of your way to do so, meaning you made a conscious decision to do so, meaning you're mad about the consequences of your own actions.)

[Slip]

Originally posted by Night Foxx:

Originally posted by Slip:

Game is very easy, and its a big minus for me.

With the level of utter incompetence this thread is showing us you have with this game, you're either trolling or just....well, I don't want another ban so I'm not going to elaborate.

You dont think game is easy? Not sure where incompetence is shown, considering we are debating about having more roleplaying options in the game.

[Slip]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by Slip:

In pretty much all previous crpgs, zents were ruthless, and crazy, I just dont see them giving ♥♥♥♥ about fail detect thought check.

Right, so in an effort to at least give some charitability, you need to sit down and do some reading.

Basically put, the Zhents are like Faerun's mafia. ( https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Zhentarim , https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zhentarim ).

Now, I don't know about you, but from what I can recall about criminal organizations, they REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when someone comes in with a wire and starts probing for information uninvited. If a person comes in unannounced, starts asking too many questions, and tries to dig into sh*t the bosses would think they have no right to know about, it makes total sense in their minds to ICE THE F*CKER!

Now, that flask (which I specifically didn't want to mention to see just how dedicated you were to calling it an amulet) is important for two reasons:
1) It's Zhent property: you shouldn't be holding it in their eyes.
2) That cargo was confidential. There was a kill order placed on anyone who opened the chest.

So, holding the flask, which is Zhent property, that has a KoS order attached to it, makes you and anyone who sees you a target. A black mark.

This means it wasn't the bargaining chip you thought it was, because by virtue of showing her the flask, you basically would have signed her own death warrant.

All in all: either you REALLY have no idea who you're dealing with or why they operate the way they do, or you're a child complaining about "Waah they said no takesies backsies", on a game mode specifically designed NOT to have savescumming, for actions which a normal person would plainly see were stupid and and reckless.

Or you're a troll looking for clicks. Which isn't entirely rules out either because you're still going on about "muh opshuns" (there's so many ways to get into the Zhent hideout in Act I that it's honestly impressive how you managed to piss them off before getting to Zarys face to face, meaning you had to go out of your way to do so, meaning you made a conscious decision to do so, meaning you're mad about the consequences of your own actions.)

I didnt say that option would be sensible, or wouldnt end up in same way, with them being hostile. But I want two fails, not one, especailly when so much stuff is behind that one fail check.
And you are right about it not being bargening chip, you joged my memory, about hiding the fact that I had it in my previous playtrough, but that is something game could teach me, in both scenarios.
But I still want muh options, as you put it. In alot of things in this game, not just this.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by Slip:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Right, so in an effort to at least give some charitability, you need to sit down and do some reading.

Basically put, the Zhents are like Faerun's mafia. ( https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Zhentarim , https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zhentarim ).

Now, I don't know about you, but from what I can recall about criminal organizations, they REALLY DON'T LIKE IT when someone comes in with a wire and starts probing for information uninvited. If a person comes in unannounced, starts asking too many questions, and tries to dig into sh*t the bosses would think they have no right to know about, it makes total sense in their minds to ICE THE F*CKER!

Now, that flask (which I specifically didn't want to mention to see just how dedicated you were to calling it an amulet) is important for two reasons:
1) It's Zhent property: you shouldn't be holding it in their eyes.
2) That cargo was confidential. There was a kill order placed on anyone who opened the chest.

So, holding the flask, which is Zhent property, that has a KoS order attached to it, makes you and anyone who sees you a target. A black mark.

This means it wasn't the bargaining chip you thought it was, because by virtue of showing her the flask, you basically would have signed her own death warrant.

All in all: either you REALLY have no idea who you're dealing with or why they operate the way they do, or you're a child complaining about "Waah they said no takesies backsies", on a game mode specifically designed NOT to have savescumming, for actions which a normal person would plainly see were stupid and and reckless.

Or you're a troll looking for clicks. Which isn't entirely rules out either because you're still going on about "muh opshuns" (there's so many ways to get into the Zhent hideout in Act I that it's honestly impressive how you managed to piss them off before getting to Zarys face to face, meaning you had to go out of your way to do so, meaning you made a conscious decision to do so, meaning you're mad about the consequences of your own actions.)

I didnt say that option would be sensible, or wouldnt end up in same way, with them being hostile. But I want two fails, not one, especailly when so much stuff is behind that one fail check.
And you are right about it not being bargening chip, you joged my memory, about hiding the fact that I had it in my previous playtrough, but that is something game could teach me, in both scenarios.
But I still want muh options, as you put it. In alot of things in this game, not just this.

Still didn't read the first bit, with the links to the sources. Come back and talk to me once you've done your homework.

[LordNibbler]

Originally posted by Slip:

Define, know what they are doing? Can we agree that game controls are rather clunky? So if you get in a situation due to miss click which can happen to anyone, and you end up in strange situation, I would say yes its my fault, but it isnt preventable regardless of my knowledge of the game. Honor mode, I would pop turn based, extremly often just to avoide simple mistakes, but it slows the game down tremendously.

In this case: you used a high risk spell (just like "Friends"). If you want to play it safe (like myself) don't use that at all. Or you know about the risk and accept when it goes sideways. And also here: know the best solution for said quest. Because if you simply let the 2 guys alive and let them keep their chest then you just walk in, they vouch for you and the boss gives you a nice reward. No risk.

And since you mentioned it: If I'm an evil syndicate mobster and some nobody walks into my secret lair full of loot, uninvited and unannounced - then you are not my friend, no matter what.

Also, personally, I like the UI and controls, as they give me a lot of freedom and (important to me) information that I want in a game like that. I have no problem with anything in that regard (well, except when the camera gets weird sometimes). I could not imagine to play this with a controller, that thought is horrid to me. But others like it better, so good for everyone that there's a choice.

And lastly I agree with the notion that Honour mode is not for the role playing but a mechanical thing. Beat the mechanics with all your knowledge that you might have about the game (i.e. it's often better to just attack a boss instead of starting a dialog/cut scene, giving yourself an advantage). But that's why it's not recommended for the first time.

[Slip]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by Slip:

I didnt say that option would be sensible, or wouldnt end up in same way, with them being hostile. But I want two fails, not one, especailly when so much stuff is behind that one fail check.
And you are right about it not being bargening chip, you joged my memory, about hiding the fact that I had it in my previous playtrough, but that is something game could teach me, in both scenarios.
But I still want muh options, as you put it. In alot of things in this game, not just this.

Still didn't read the first bit, with the links to the sources. Come back and talk to me once you've done your homework.

I get where you are coming from, but like I said, we can both be wrong and right, devs are the ones that make the game, and know what that npc would do. In this case, technically you are right, unless they patch it hehe

Same as a dm would set the tone, and personality for an npc.

So I would argue, for the sake of ending the back and forth, that this is a matter of perception, and how different we perceive the topic at hand, or rather, the quest in the game.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by Slip:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Still didn't read the first bit, with the links to the sources. Come back and talk to me once you've done your homework.

I get where you are coming from, but like I said, we can both be wrong and right, devs are the ones that make the game, and know what that npc would do. In this case, technically you are right, unless they patch it hehe

Same as a dm would set the tone, and personality for an npc.

So I would argue, for the sake of ending the back and forth, that this is a matter of perception, and how different we perceive the topic at hand, or rather, the quest in the game.

No. It's a matter of lack of information on your end and lack of a f*ck to give on mine.

This isn't something where there is an "agree to disagree" moment. You made a mistake, your actions have consequences, and you're mad you have to face them. You had plenty of options up to this point, but chose 2 bad ones and mucked up one roll you didn't have to make in the first place.

When you realize that, then we can wrap the discussion up.

[Slip]

Originally posted by LordNibbler:

Originally posted by Slip:

Define, know what they are doing? Can we agree that game controls are rather clunky? So if you get in a situation due to miss click which can happen to anyone, and you end up in strange situation, I would say yes its my fault, but it isnt preventable regardless of my knowledge of the game. Honor mode, I would pop turn based, extremly often just to avoide simple mistakes, but it slows the game down tremendously.

In this case: you used a high risk spell (just like "Friends"). If you want to play it safe (like myself) don't use that at all. Or you know about the risk and accept when it goes sideways. And also here: know the best solution for said quest. Because if you simply let the 2 guys alive and let them keep their chest then you just walk in, they vouch for you and the boss gives you a nice reward. No risk.

And since you mentioned it: If I'm an evil syndicate mobster and some nobody walks into my secret lair full of loot, uninvited and unannounced - then you are not my friend, no matter what.

Also, personally, I like the UI and controls, as they give me a lot of freedom and (important to me) information that I want in a game like that. I have no problem with anything in that regard (well, except when the camera gets weird sometimes). I could not imagine to play this with a controller, that thought is horrid to me. But others like it better, so good for everyone that there's a choice.

And lastly I agree with the notion that Honour mode is not for the role playing but a mechanical thing. Beat the mechanics with all your knowledge that you might have about the game (i.e. it's often better to just attack a boss instead of starting a dialog/cut scene, giving yourself an advantage). But that's why it's not recommended for the first time.

It is hard to get best solution on honor, even on tactican it was a pain in the ass, those two die quite fast.

Me personally, I hate that mouse options are limited, cant bind two actions to same mouse button. Camera can get wonky, some items dont even have highlights. Followers pathing is really bad, frequently get stuck. No proper control for temporary npcs. Camera blacking out, and in if npcs a bit further away, and few others.

[Zaris]

If you play on Honour mode you need a 100% safe tactic for every encounter which reduces your options down to the usual cheese strats (dual haste with sorc on melees, fireball, exploding barrels, ...).

For the Zhentarum hideout you should most likely need to sneak in, avoid the dialog and explode the barrels to kil the first 3 guys on the ground, one left and then the other 3-4 in the back which come one after another.

[Slip]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by Slip:

I get where you are coming from, but like I said, we can both be wrong and right, devs are the ones that make the game, and know what that npc would do. In this case, technically you are right, unless they patch it hehe

Same as a dm would set the tone, and personality for an npc.

So I would argue, for the sake of ending the back and forth, that this is a matter of perception, and how different we perceive the topic at hand, or rather, the quest in the game.

No. It's a matter of lack of information on your end and lack of a f*ck to give on mine.

This isn't something where there is an "agree to disagree" moment. You made a mistake, your actions have consequences, and you're mad you have to face them. You had plenty of options up to this point, but chose 2 bad ones and mucked up one roll you didn't have to make in the first place.

When you realize that, then we can wrap the discussion up.

I would disagree, as stuff in game can be changed, and was changed. Saying something is permanent, when so much stuff got changed is just wrong. Granted at this point, it probably wont change, but you never know.

I can admit I ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, but I also want muh options. I mean, people in early access, changed a lot of stuff, due to feedback, this is a feedback.

A good crpg, gives you fun stuff even when you ♥♥♥♥ up, this game fails in that regard, hence why I compared it to disarming a trap.