Wizards VS Sorcerers. Wizards got royally FKD compared to 5th ed D&D

[Jonny Boy]

Wizards are missing sooooo much and Sorcerers are missing nothing compared to table top.

The only meaningful significant spell in BG3 that Sorcerers cant get is Conjure Elemental.

This is just not balanced properly imo. Sorcerers getting meta magic and only missing out on one significant spell is a joke.

[xposethedarkside]

I mean, if you're looking at it from purely a damage output perspective then yea, sorcerer is better. Wizards are supposed to be more flexible and versatile because they can scribe any scroll they come across(assuming they're high enough level for the spell)

I think the main reason this doesn't come across well in BG3 is simply because of the sheer volume and variety of scrolls available everywhere.
Especially once you reach sorcerous sundries and are walking around with 20k gold
Spell slots become pretty trivial at that point when you're walking around with enough scrolls to handle 10 boss fights.

Even meta magic is like meh by that point. I mean who cares about twinning chromatic orbs when you're slinging chain lightnings over and over like it's a cantrip.

Coming across high level scrolls like that should be a rarer thing. Not something you can stop in to a shop and pick up like a carton of Marlboros

if you find a high level scroll, and it's rare. A sorcerer could use it once, but a wizard can use it forever. If scrolls were more rare it would automatically make wizards on par with a sorcerer.

[AokiYakumo]

I think a big part of the reason WIZ isn't getting a lot of attention compared to SRC is the fact it's so dippable. A single level of WIZ is basically enough to net you two whole classes in one go, given the fact you can scribe scrolls you find and memorize to your liking based on your INT, and allowing you to cherry pick the spells you want to use from the WIZ list to go with the spells of a completely additional class like CLC or DRD.

Because you get that utility right out the gate at 1st level, there's no big reason to go further unless you're specifically building for it (See the WIZ 10 / WLK 2 build that adds 2x CHA + INT to all EB & Ray of Frost attacks averaging 61.5 from EB without any itemization whatsoever and 59 on average from Ray of Frost thanks to Wet or Chilled, both of which you can reliably set up yourself).

I remember taking a single WIZ level on a CLC/DRD multiclass, just to get Conjure Elemental as I would be losing out on 5th level spells with the class distribution. It still net me Shield, Magic Missile, Counterspell, Haste, Artistry of War, Disguise Self, Cloud of Daggers, and a host of other WIZ spells that added to my repetoire of CLC/DRD shenanigans and could be switched as needed.

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That said I don't think SRC is eating WIZ's lunch. The flexibility of picking whatever, whenever, without fear of it taking up a precious "spell known" slot, and having that option to just say "Y'know what? I think Haste isn't a good option here, lemme switch it to Sleet Storm real quick" instead of being stuck with Haste because you aren't close enough to a level to fish it out, is way more impactful than you might think.

Changing it around to use Disguise Self for the goblins in Act I, Knock on Balty's chamber, Dimension Door for the Speaker of Bhaal trial or Iron Throne, Hideous Laughter for the Sarevok fight, theen switching back to your usual suspects INSTANTLY after the fight is over, without need to buy more than one scroll of those spells thus saving you more money for things like Chain Lightning Scrolls, Smokepowder/Slayer Arrows, Act III weapons/armor, Stoney's statue, Helsik's deal, more elixirs, tithes at the Tabernacle for the free buffs, or even a donation at the Mirror of Loss (you need a set gp amount on the bowl before the door can open, if you don't just Knock it to begin with because WIZ), is massive in some playthroughs.

[DDkiki]

*laughs in unkillable Abjuration Wizard*

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by DDkiki:

*laughs in unkillable Abjuration Wizard*

Oh, yeah, no, Abjurer's f*cking stupid; especially with a dip into SRC and CLC to get AoA and heavy armor prof. 100% valid and busted and fun af.

I will say, however, that this is a case of specifically building with WIZ primarily in mind, tho. It's a deliberate setup with a higher knowledge ceiling and more skill expression than SRC shenanigans. Which is fun in its own right.

[DDkiki]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by DDkiki:

*laughs in unkillable Abjuration Wizard*

Oh, yeah, no, Abjurer's f*cking stupid; especially with a dip into SRC and CLC to get AoA and heavy armor prof. 100% valid and busted and fun af.

I will say, however, that this is a case of specifically building with WIZ primarily in mind, tho. It's a deliberate setup with a higher knowledge ceiling and more skill expression than SRC shenanigans. Which is fun in its own right.

I also enjoyed pure necromancy wizard, with a staff from act 3 it shines, but even in act 1-2 having more undead summons and some cheap heal helps a lot(and pairs well with illithid power that transfers your HP). And i just love debuffing enemies, even spreading poison is already pretty fun. But i would be fair, spore druid is just better in every aspect haha.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by DDkiki:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Oh, yeah, no, Abjurer's f*cking stupid; especially with a dip into SRC and CLC to get AoA and heavy armor prof. 100% valid and busted and fun af.

I will say, however, that this is a case of specifically building with WIZ primarily in mind, tho. It's a deliberate setup with a higher knowledge ceiling and more skill expression than SRC shenanigans. Which is fun in its own right.

I also enjoyed pure necromancy wizard, with a staff from act 3 it shines, but even in act 1-2 having more undead summons and some cheap heal helps a lot(and pairs well with illithid power that transfers your HP). And i just love debuffing enemies, even spreading poison is already pretty fun. But i would be fair, spore druid is just better in every aspect haha.

Abjurer and Evoker are usually the ones I see taken to 6th+ from the builds I've seen, mostly because Evoker 10 has +INT to Evocation damage and most of the best damaging spells in the game are Evocations (particularly the ice or lightning ones), while Abjurer 6 has Project Ward which is a great covertanking ability and Abjurer 10 gives that empowered ward that enhances itself on a short rest (meaning you can give yourself DR 20 at the start of each day and keep it up with efficient use of Glyph of Warding for damage or Counterspell for control).

Necromancer 6 is fun for the undead buff, and Transmuter 6 is fun for the stone buffs, but both have chassis that make them better for dips (Transmuter 3 on a ROG to double your alchemies is kinda insane, while Necromancer 2 is insane, interestingly enough, on a Spores DRD for the drain-tanking).

[DDkiki]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by DDkiki:

I also enjoyed pure necromancy wizard, with a staff from act 3 it shines, but even in act 1-2 having more undead summons and some cheap heal helps a lot(and pairs well with illithid power that transfers your HP). And i just love debuffing enemies, even spreading poison is already pretty fun. But i would be fair, spore druid is just better in every aspect haha.

Abjurer and Evoker are usually the ones I see taken to 6th+ from the builds I've seen, mostly because Evoker 10 has +INT to Evocation damage and most of the best damaging spells in the game are Evocations (particularly the ice or lightning ones), while Abjurer 6 has Project Ward which is a great covertanking ability and Abjurer 10 gives that empowered ward that enhances itself on a short rest (meaning you can give yourself DR 20 at the start of each day and keep it up with efficient use of Glyph of Warding for damage or Counterspell for control).

Necromancer 6 is fun for the undead buff, and Transmuter 6 is fun for the stone buffs, but both have chassis that make them better for dips (Transmuter 3 on a ROG to double your alchemies is kinda insane, while Necromancer 2 is insane, interestingly enough, on a Spores DRD for the drain-tanking).

I dont think necro 2 would fit spore cuz spore works too much on his Temp HP buff i think, so its kinda useless. Shame we didn't get Death Cleric :C

Necromancer really shines later on as pure, no jokes, its awesome, as soon as you get blight you can do many nasty things, and you can get necromancy boosting stave from circus owners by disarming her, before you get one from Mystic Carrier. And later dual wield it with Woe.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by DDkiki:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Abjurer and Evoker are usually the ones I see taken to 6th+ from the builds I've seen, mostly because Evoker 10 has +INT to Evocation damage and most of the best damaging spells in the game are Evocations (particularly the ice or lightning ones), while Abjurer 6 has Project Ward which is a great covertanking ability and Abjurer 10 gives that empowered ward that enhances itself on a short rest (meaning you can give yourself DR 20 at the start of each day and keep it up with efficient use of Glyph of Warding for damage or Counterspell for control).

Necromancer 6 is fun for the undead buff, and Transmuter 6 is fun for the stone buffs, but both have chassis that make them better for dips (Transmuter 3 on a ROG to double your alchemies is kinda insane, while Necromancer 2 is insane, interestingly enough, on a Spores DRD for the drain-tanking).

I dont think necro 2 would fit spore cuz spore works too much on his Temp HP buff i think, so its kinda useless. Shame we didn't get Death Cleric :C

Necromancer really shines later on as pure, no jokes, its awesome, as soon as you get blight you can do many nasty things, and you can get necromancy boosting stave from circus owners by disarming her, before you get one from Mystic Carrier. And later dual wield it with Woe.

You'd lose 8 THP from a max of 48, and you still get the Spores DRD 10 feature that lets them throw spore grenades, so I'd say losing 8 THP for some chip-healing is pretty fair imo. Pure Necromancer still works, no knocking it, but there is reason to use it as a dip.

[DDkiki]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by DDkiki:

I dont think necro 2 would fit spore cuz spore works too much on his Temp HP buff i think, so its kinda useless. Shame we didn't get Death Cleric :C

Necromancer really shines later on as pure, no jokes, its awesome, as soon as you get blight you can do many nasty things, and you can get necromancy boosting stave from circus owners by disarming her, before you get one from Mystic Carrier. And later dual wield it with Woe.

You'd lose 8 THP from a max of 48, and you still get the Spores DRD 10 feature that lets them throw spore grenades, so I'd say losing 8 THP for some chip-healing is pretty fair imo. Pure Necromancer still works, no knocking it, but there is reason to use it as a dip.

I mean there is no reason for cheap healing if you rely on THP and dont want it to drop. Just feels counter productive to me kinda. In ideal situation spore druid would never let his THP to drop cuz it cost him damage etc.

[AokiYakumo]

Originally posted by DDkiki:

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

You'd lose 8 THP from a max of 48, and you still get the Spores DRD 10 feature that lets them throw spore grenades, so I'd say losing 8 THP for some chip-healing is pretty fair imo. Pure Necromancer still works, no knocking it, but there is reason to use it as a dip.

I mean there is no reason for cheap healing if you rely on THP and dont want it to drop. Just feels counter productive to me kinda. In ideal situation spore druid would never let his THP to drop cuz it cost him damage etc.

Fair, but we hardly have ideal situations.

Radiant Orb CLC should never get hit because they effectively have an AC of 27 with toggleable disadvantage (19 base with the -6 attack penalty from Radiant Orb and a further -2 from Reeling if you use Adamantine Shield), but it still can happen often enough that it can spur forum posts saying "AC IS A LIE!!!" or some sh*t.

TB-Karlach is one of the best damage builds in BG3, but there's been situations where she yeets her weapon and it doesn't come back when it should, and now she loses half her firepower.

You could have a build with a theoretical +16 to CON saves and advantage on concentration checks, and still lose a spell from an errant Magic Missile.

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Outside that, iirc, the Boots of Aid and Comfort are BiS for Spore DRD because the THP they offer can actually heal the spore shield. Having the chip heal from Necromancer 2 can trigger the boots, which regenerates THP, which fulfills the purpose of never losing the spore shield.

This, plus Balduran's Helm which also procs the boots, plus having a pack of potions for BA heals to also proc the boots, basically ensures the shield never drops unless you just straight up eat a Hellball or stand in the explosion of a Steel Watcher.

[DDkiki]

Originally posted by AokiYakumo:

Originally posted by DDkiki:

I mean there is no reason for cheap healing if you rely on THP and dont want it to drop. Just feels counter productive to me kinda. In ideal situation spore druid would never let his THP to drop cuz it cost him damage etc.

Fair, but we hardly have ideal situations.

Radiant Orb CLC should never get hit because they effectively have an AC of 27 with toggleable disadvantage (19 base with the -6 attack penalty from Radiant Orb and a further -2 from Reeling if you use Adamantine Shield), but it still can happen often enough that it can spur forum posts saying "AC IS A LIE!!!" or some sh*t.

TB-Karlach is one of the best damage builds in BG3, but there's been situations where she yeets her weapon and it doesn't come back when it should, and now she loses half her firepower.

You could have a build with a theoretical +16 to CON saves and advantage on concentration checks, and still lose a spell from an errant Magic Missile.

-----

Outside that, iirc, the Boots of Aid and Comfort are BiS for Spore DRD because the THP they offer can actually heal the spore shield. Having the chip heal from Necromancer 2 can trigger the boots, which regenerates THP, which fulfills the purpose of never losing the spore shield.

This, plus Balduran's Helm which also procs the boots, plus having a pack of potions for BA heals to also proc the boots, basically ensures the shield never drops unless you just straight up eat a Hellball or stand in the explosion of a Steel Watcher.

You might be on something here i will test it later on and see how it goes ^^''

[Panda]

Depends on what you want, considering pure damage without meta magic - evocation mage > draconic sorcerer.
Considering end game build with high enough DC (25>higher) - sorcerer > any mage.
Full gear + mirror aka 29 DC check - sorcerer negs wizard. (Say Hi for twinned t6/upcasted spells, say Hi for double spells with Quickened meta magic).

But in general wizard is better overall in terms of damage, while sorcerer is better in terms of CC.

You don’t need to spend careful meta magic for evocation wizard to save your allies.
You have better spell slot recovery.
More spells and insane flexible homebrew option from devs - change spells without long rest, recover slots without short rest.

I still prefer sorcerer for Hard/100% CC option since CC > damage.

Meanwhile the balance is ok, you can’t have much spells as a sorcerer, like 2-3 t1 spells, 2-3 tier 2 spells and etc, you can’t learn them anyhow, while wizards are ok to have multiple spells and even more spells via scrolls to flex/angry sorcerer with spell list.

[lordmilier]

Originally posted by xposethedarkside:

I mean, if you're looking at it from purely a damage output perspective then yea, sorcerer is better. Wizards are supposed to be more flexible and versatile because they can scribe any scroll they come across(assuming they're high enough level for the spell)

I think the main reason this doesn't come across well in BG3 is simply because of the sheer volume and variety of scrolls available everywhere.
Especially once you reach sorcerous sundries and are walking around with 20k gold
Spell slots become pretty trivial at that point when you're walking around with enough scrolls to handle 10 boss fights.

Even meta magic is like meh by that point. I mean who cares about twinning chromatic orbs when you're slinging chain lightnings over and over like it's a cantrip.

Coming across high level scrolls like that should be a rarer thing. Not something you can stop in to a shop and pick up like a carton of Marlboros

if you find a high level scroll, and it's rare. A sorcerer could use it once, but a wizard can use it forever. If scrolls were more rare it would automatically make wizards on par with a sorcerer.

It dose not matter if wizard has more spells or not they both get all the relevant control spells not to mention that the best one command is not available to either of the 2 casters in question here.

Meta-magic is insane at every stage of the game since you have twin haste and 2nd action via it as well. This is good no matter what point of the game you are at. none of this helped by the many many ways you can get infinite sorc points in the game.

There is not a stage in the game that sorc is just simply not a better wizard damage and control sorc is miles and miles and miles ahead of a wizard.

[xposethedarkside]

Originally posted by lordmilier:

Originally posted by xposethedarkside:

I mean, if you're looking at it from purely a damage output perspective then yea, sorcerer is better. Wizards are supposed to be more flexible and versatile because they can scribe any scroll they come across(assuming they're high enough level for the spell)

I think the main reason this doesn't come across well in BG3 is simply because of the sheer volume and variety of scrolls available everywhere.
Especially once you reach sorcerous sundries and are walking around with 20k gold
Spell slots become pretty trivial at that point when you're walking around with enough scrolls to handle 10 boss fights.

Even meta magic is like meh by that point. I mean who cares about twinning chromatic orbs when you're slinging chain lightnings over and over like it's a cantrip.

Coming across high level scrolls like that should be a rarer thing. Not something you can stop in to a shop and pick up like a carton of Marlboros

if you find a high level scroll, and it's rare. A sorcerer could use it once, but a wizard can use it forever. If scrolls were more rare it would automatically make wizards on par with a sorcerer.

It dose not matter if wizard has more spells or not they both get all the relevant control spells not to mention that the best one command is not available to either of the 2 casters in question here.

Meta-magic is insane at every stage of the game since you have twin haste and 2nd action via it as well. This is good no matter what point of the game you are at. none of this helped by the many many ways you can get infinite sorc points in the game.

There is not a stage in the game that sorc is just simply not a better wizard damage and control sorc is miles and miles and miles ahead of a wizard.

I don't really use sorc like that. All my spell slots just get used for counterspell/shield and that's it. My sorc points I just use to create more spell slots for more counterspell/shields.
I fight defensively, setting up in small choke points and making the enemy come to me. I throw down a hunger of Hadar in front with my warlock, maybe a wall of fire or cloud kill on top of it, and then let the enemy kill themselves trying to make it through.
Then just sling chain lightnings at them over and over. My melee characters usually just stand there doing nothing most of the time. Maybe they get to finish off one or two lucky ones that make it through the hoh/firewall/cloud kill gauntlet. But other than hunger of Hadar, everything else I'm casting is just off of scrolls. I walk around with dozens of all the best spells. Works for me.

[Kappa]

They are both fine.
Some spells are only available in limited scrolls, and being able to prepare many of them is pretty cool.

I prefer to use the sorcerer as support / controller, while the wizard as damage dealer.