The impact of Charisma

[TastefulSidecar]

First off let me preface this by saying Baldurs Gate 3 is an incredible RPG that consistently scratches my itch for feelings of exploration and the joy of branching paths through the story.

One thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way about the game is that Charisma is such an absurdly impactful stat. Persuasion Deception and Intimidation can negate fights all together, steer your party more effectively down good/bad paths and unlock content that it makes wisdom and intelligence feel crappy by comparison, and agility/strength checks have almost no effect on the story.

From what Ive seen Intelligence (aside from detect thoughts rolls which can be disastrous if failed) really just gives you lore dumps while walking around and wisdom occasionally gives interesting dialogue due to insight but more often than not just shows shiny mounds of dirt with a few potions and some gold.

After I finish my current run I'm going to put this to the test by doing a charisma dump Tav, but from my breakthroughs so far it seems like the best skills to have on your main PC are the charisma ones, which push sorc/paladin/bard/warlock and disincentivize other classes.

I wish that other skills opened up favorable dialogue paths more. Maybe the persuasion checks for steering Shart away from Sharr could be greatly improved by knowledge you gain from high religion, or debating Kagha could be tied to Nature and Insight. Having a high charisma partyface should have benefits but I think that charisma checks steer the dialogue so much and have such an overwhelming impact on the story that it is a huge missed opportunity to create a more interesting way of navigating the story aside from constantly rolling persuasion so you can get the goodies easier. It would be one thing if high charisma investment meant you were better at talking your way out of fights but you were weaker in them but charisma classes are absolute powerhouses in BG3 (and DnD for that matter)




Sorry for the light novel, but do others feel this way? For those who have dumped charisma in their playthroughs do you feel that it has lead to an interesting branching story or does it just feel like you're handicapped whenever you're in dialogue?

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

harken, Pathfinder's original ruleset is D&D 3.5 ruleset. That's why I'm using it as a reference.
Charisma being your "natural authority" it should be both useful in combat (like to intimidate or boost) and in conversations. Bards or Paladin are the typical original classes that use charisma. i

[JP]

Luckily there are multiple classes that use charisma. The real problem, I think, is the inability to choose which character makes the rolls in conversations. If Gale is right there, I should be able to ask him to roll for investigation or arcana etc. Why not? Other games have done that.

[Popsicles]

Friends cantrip is OP. I've used it 100s of times in BG3 and there is never any consequence. In TT they are supposed to know you tricked them after 1 minute.

[seeker1]

A lof of Tavs are likely to be sorcerors (Dark Urge by default is one) or bards as those classes are not normally among the pool of companions, or to choose paladin because they may not be sure they can get Minthara, and thus it's interesting they are likely to have CHA as their main stat - good as they usually are the "speaker" for the party.

If you want to be the party voice, monk isn't the best choice, although it DOES get some of the most interesting class-tagged dialogue.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by harken23:

Originally posted by Jean-Maurice Nya:

harken, if you look at the Pathfinder ruleset and Owlcat's games, charisma is an extremely powerful stat. Too bad it's irrelevant in dialogs for all I remember.

Right, I'm talking mostly about the iterations of D&D and CHA. Sorcerers weren't in AD&D, and I don't remember bard rules (tho they may have existed? I don't specifically remember them) that use Charisma as a main stat.

AD&D had bards in the appendix, with psionics. An odd implementation; essentially a triple-class character. Level as fighter, switch to thief, and then finally bard.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by Popsicles:

Friends cantrip is OP. I've used it 100s of times in BG3 and there is never any consequence. In TT they are supposed to know you tricked them after 1 minute.

I've seen that happen, but only on Tactician or higher.

[authorialdoug]

I honestly love playing a poor charisma-less tav. Yes the dialogue checks are brutal but I feel like since you can rely on either Wyll or even Astarion to give you another shot, I like to see the failures too. But I like to see every outcome possible like a weirdo, and I feel that there are enough ways to achieve what you want that you can do without

[DeMasked]

My Honour Mode run my character has 1 dip into Cleric for Tempest giving me Guidance. I then have Shadowheart for Enhanced Ability and Gale who is mostly Bard with a bit of Wizard for that Inspiration.

Managed to convince a certain Act 2 boss to end himself leading to the skipping of part of his fight.

I only have 10 Charisma.

[lordmilier]

Originally posted by DeMasked:

My Honour Mode run my character has 1 dip into Cleric for Tempest giving me Guidance. I then have Shadowheart for Enhanced Ability and Gale who is mostly Bard with a bit of Wizard for that Inspiration.

Managed to convince a certain Act 2 boss to end himself leading to the skipping of part of his fight.

I only have 10 Charisma.

BI adds up to +10 to a roll on it´s own hardly an impressive feat passing skill checks with the most broken class in the game in your party.

[parent child bowl]

I don't consider speech checks to be relevant/necessary in BG3 outside of solo runs.

[[TG] zac]

Originally posted by kingonads:

Originally posted by harken23:

Ah, were they in, like, The Wizard's Handbook? Those had some cool stuff in them, but I don't remember anyone I knew playing or DMing one.

Yes the Wizards handbook, because in it was also the wild mage, dragon disciple and a few others. I just remember sorcerers being broken if you used daggers or quarterstaff. You could cast spells pretty well or at least VERY nasty control spells and then smack them REALLY hard because you could have a 18STR.

This ^

3.5 and pathfinder 1e was where they really hit their stride with sorcerers.

The passive bonuses blood lines gave combined with prestige classes like dragon disciple meant that by level 10 I could have a very good AC, a ton of strength +2 damage per die rolled if it matched my dragon element and my race (if gnome or asimar as they had optional racials to get bonuses to energy damage like dragon bloodline did) and a rather high charisma.

By 14 you would have all that along with permanent wings & a breath weapon usable multiple times per day.

[DeMasked]

Originally posted by lordmilier:

Originally posted by DeMasked:

My Honour Mode run my character has 1 dip into Cleric for Tempest giving me Guidance. I then have Shadowheart for Enhanced Ability and Gale who is mostly Bard with a bit of Wizard for that Inspiration.

Managed to convince a certain Act 2 boss to end himself leading to the skipping of part of his fight.

I only have 10 Charisma.

BI adds up to +10 to a roll on it´s own hardly an impressive feat passing skill checks with the most broken class in the game in your party.

The game can force your main character into dialogue situations where yes it is handy to have a Cleric and Bard to boost your character when it is needed.

People who complain about needing Charisma to pass certain dialogue skill checks can deal with it either by having their main character be charisma based or by having certain classes, subclasses, races in your party can alleviate that unless you are going for a more smash first talk after sort of approach.

Also a 1-10 is still luck based as opposed to having a solid 4 or 5 baseline. Main character doesn't need to have Charisma.

[Detective Costeau]

Originally posted by JP:

Luckily there are multiple classes that use charisma. The real problem, I think, is the inability to choose which character makes the rolls in conversations. If Gale is right there, I should be able to ask him to roll for investigation or arcana etc. Why not? Other games have done that.

If you don't mind using mods, this
https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/2171
Does exactly what you want.
Really should have been at least an option in the game settings IMO, but what can you do.

[Estevan Valladares]

I think there is something you can do in BG3 that is "change the character you are using", and when you are required to interact with the main character, there is a reason for that.
While at one point (the dream visitor chat) the game explicitly says he/she will only talk to the "leader of the group", other instances it is required for a reason.

Changing that is most akin to cheating, which is totally fine, but dont go around claiming all the crap about options when it is just "convenience" to make things easier.

For example, in a RPG itself, the "leader" of the group is often someone who has charisma for that reason. You would not build a group and name a "leader" who is a stupid jerk. If people are so much on that "D&D game" over BG3, which is totally crap, but people say this, why dont they play it like one would D&D ?

[alanc9]

There's also the option of just... accepting the dialogue check failure. There aren't too many cases where you can't play through. (Githyanki Patrol at level 3, perhaps.)