The impact of Charisma

[TastefulSidecar]

First off let me preface this by saying Baldurs Gate 3 is an incredible RPG that consistently scratches my itch for feelings of exploration and the joy of branching paths through the story.

One thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way about the game is that Charisma is such an absurdly impactful stat. Persuasion Deception and Intimidation can negate fights all together, steer your party more effectively down good/bad paths and unlock content that it makes wisdom and intelligence feel crappy by comparison, and agility/strength checks have almost no effect on the story.

From what Ive seen Intelligence (aside from detect thoughts rolls which can be disastrous if failed) really just gives you lore dumps while walking around and wisdom occasionally gives interesting dialogue due to insight but more often than not just shows shiny mounds of dirt with a few potions and some gold.

After I finish my current run I'm going to put this to the test by doing a charisma dump Tav, but from my breakthroughs so far it seems like the best skills to have on your main PC are the charisma ones, which push sorc/paladin/bard/warlock and disincentivize other classes.

I wish that other skills opened up favorable dialogue paths more. Maybe the persuasion checks for steering Shart away from Sharr could be greatly improved by knowledge you gain from high religion, or debating Kagha could be tied to Nature and Insight. Having a high charisma partyface should have benefits but I think that charisma checks steer the dialogue so much and have such an overwhelming impact on the story that it is a huge missed opportunity to create a more interesting way of navigating the story aside from constantly rolling persuasion so you can get the goodies easier. It would be one thing if high charisma investment meant you were better at talking your way out of fights but you were weaker in them but charisma classes are absolute powerhouses in BG3 (and DnD for that matter)




Sorry for the light novel, but do others feel this way? For those who have dumped charisma in their playthroughs do you feel that it has lead to an interesting branching story or does it just feel like you're handicapped whenever you're in dialogue?

[Estevan Valladares]

You seem to not pay much attention to what really influences how dialogue checks work.

[TastefulSidecar]

Originally posted by Estevan Valladares:

You seem to not pay much attention to what really influences how dialogue checks work.

Then enlighten me, because aside from the rare hidden insight roll leading to an extra dialogue option the only checks that seem to meaningfully influence the story are charisma checks and the vast vast majority of the time the modifiers are just '(insert charisma skill) expertise'

[Metallicus]

Charisma is just one way to influence the story. There are many class specific dialogue options that also influence the story that have nothing to do with your stats. I have had at least half my characters created with an 8 in charisma and I haven't missed any content, however, the story may unfold differently.

[Estevan Valladares]

So many different things will influence how you experience content, like situational advantage offering two die for your class, for having previously done what you are supposed to be asking about, having relevant items, having a certain ability, being of a certain race, having a certain companion, having done things in a different order, having done optional parts of the content, having come from a certain place to the place of the dialogue.

And that is just being generic with them, because specific combinations of those will create specific situations.

Sometimes you are even ONLY allowed to speak to a certain character if a combination of those criteria on the situation are valid. Some of them are basically only possible if you have read about them or have "hindsight bonus", which an RPG expression about for example you going through a campaign you already done before, but the present character you playing did not.

I do think this game is really "average" when it comes to storytelling, but crap development, like the devil, you must give credit when credit is due.

[kingonads]

Originally posted by TastefulSidecar:

First off let me preface this by saying Baldurs Gate 3 is an incredible RPG that consistently scratches my itch for feelings of exploration and the joy of branching paths through the story.

One thing that kind of rubs me the wrong way about the game is that Charisma is such an absurdly impactful stat. Persuasion Deception and Intimidation can negate fights all together, steer your party more effectively down good/bad paths and unlock content that it makes wisdom and intelligence feel crappy by comparison, and agility/strength checks have almost no effect on the story.

From what Ive seen Intelligence (aside from detect thoughts rolls which can be disastrous if failed) really just gives you lore dumps while walking around and wisdom occasionally gives interesting dialogue due to insight but more often than not just shows shiny mounds of dirt with a few potions and some gold.

After I finish my current run I'm going to put this to the test by doing a charisma dump Tav, but from my breakthroughs so far it seems like the best skills to have on your main PC are the charisma ones, which push sorc/paladin/bard/warlock and disincentivize other classes.

I wish that other skills opened up favorable dialogue paths more. Maybe the persuasion checks for steering Shart away from Sharr could be greatly improved by knowledge you gain from high religion, or debating Kagha could be tied to Nature and Insight. Having a high charisma partyface should have benefits but I think that charisma checks steer the dialogue so much and have such an overwhelming impact on the story that it is a huge missed opportunity to create a more interesting way of navigating the story aside from constantly rolling persuasion so you can get the goodies easier. It would be one thing if high charisma investment meant you were better at talking your way out of fights but you were weaker in them but charisma classes are absolute powerhouses in BG3 (and DnD for that matter)

Sorry for the light novel, but do others feel this way? For those who have dumped charisma in their playthroughs do you feel that it has lead to an interesting branching story or does it just feel like you're handicapped whenever you're in dialogue?

Well think about it. Even in real life charisma is a VERY important attribute. Many people lack it and cant talk their way out of a wet paper bag with holes in it.

One does not listen to someone who cant speak without sounding like an idiot.

Granted you can do pretty well with a just above average charisma in game, just dump points into persuasion, intimidation, or deception. Hell I have a druid/cleric that has 14CHA and is doing just fine in most dialog options better than I expected. When paired with Hafling luck and a proficiency in persuasion, its not to bad.

[Estevan Valladares]

https://youtu.be/gC52U3NtEB4

[lordmilier]

Originally posted by Metallicus:

Charisma is just one way to influence the story. There are many class specific dialogue options that also influence the story that have nothing to do with your stats. I have had at least half my characters created with an 8 in charisma and I haven't missed any content, however, the story may unfold differently.

I dunno about that while I only saw extra class options in act 3 as this is when I had 2 levels into fighter these checks still required me to roll based on charisma and not of str or dex.

As for the topic the issue with charisma is many fold in BG3 it being an actual combat stat and not only that all the charisma classes are very strong. Would go as far as to say 3 of them are easily in the top 5 strongest classes in the game. And not only that it is the safest and easiest way to "steer" the story in the direction you desire the most.

The only upside is that wisdom checks are by far the most important saving throw in the game so at least here charisma losses. Still this dose not matter at all if you are a paladin(still one of the most popular classes for a tav in BG3) since you can get + 6 or even 7 saving throw from auras so yea.

To people talking about it can be "good" to let the game just play out with little control over it for most people a run will set them back at least 100 hours and for most letting Jesus take the wheel type of approach to something like this is not a value proposition.

[chipofsalt]

Wisdom is not a "crappy" stat as you put it; in fact it is extremely important in combat, as well as playing a role in some dialogue checks. It's also the casting attribute for multiple classes.

Intelligence is not great though. It's only used by wizard and weird, niche subclasses like EK, and there are too few checks that require intelligence. This is more a problem with 5e in general that got placed in a similar situation with bg3.

The question should not be "why is CHA so good." The question should instead be, 'why is INT so niche?"

[Tresh]

To me, the impact of Charisma in BG3 mirrors the importance of it in TTRPGs in general perfectly, so I love it.

You don't have good charisma? Talking yourself out of an encounter will be tough then, as it should be.
High charisma characters will naturally open doors for you that would otherwise remain closed and it can make the difference between playing murder-hobos or adventurers that ask questions first and draw weapons second.
If that is your preferred playstile, taking a high charisma class is highly incentivised, but to me that is just the nature of focusing on the roleplay aspect of the game.

[Daniel_USA]

I get just as many "rogue" speaking choices as I do "bard" speaking choicesm but since I'm multiclass in both I usually spam charisma skill checks since I have expertise in all 3 types.

but the game does offer class specific dialogues on the regular, as well as information specific ones as well, such as reading a book or journal.

[Panda]

In most cases - yes, charisma is MVP dialogue stat.
About other non dialogue checks - depends on you class and sub class, you can have advantage, disadvantage (for some cleric events), another stat (draconic sorcerer can force to use charisma instead of wisdom/Con saves) to be used instead of normal one.

In most cases the best dialogue stat ofc is charisma, while wisdom stat can skip some dialogues because you understand that something is wrong here, you can also ask more questions if you pass INT checks sometimes. There are also different endings for the dialogue, you are mostly ok to fail INT check (not save), while if you fail charisma option - you can be attacked and etc. (ignore detect thoughts unless you have advantage)

You can check Kagha dialogues, you don’t really need charisma to success here, you can pass multiple INT checks to understand paintings, you can be a Druid, you can be a wooden elf, multiple choices, you also won’t have some particular dialogue option if you can’t pass wisdom or int check, so instead you are forced to use charisma option.

[kingonads]

Originally posted by chipofsalt:

Wisdom is not a "crappy" stat as you put it; in fact it is extremely important in combat, as well as playing a role in some dialogue checks. It's also the casting attribute for multiple classes.

Intelligence is not great though. It's only used by wizard and weird, niche subclasses like EK, and there are too few checks that require intelligence. This is more a problem with 5e in general that got placed in a similar situation with bg3.

The question should not be "why is CHA so good." The question should instead be, 'why is INT so niche?"

That is one of those things Pathfinder does better. Certain classes can swap dialog skills from CHA to INT or WIS based on their abilities.

[Kappa]

Charisma might be an alternative if the party doesn’t want to have an expertise character.

For example, having a dex fighter/ranger with thievery and stealth rather than a rogue, letting the sorcerer handling social encounters.

Imagine a persuasion comparison:

The sorcerer would have 2 ( proficiency ) + 3 ( charisma ), while a standard rogue would get 2 ( proficiency ) + 2 ( expertise ) + 1 ( charisma )

Along with guidance, everything is going to work exactly the same ( reason why charisma is not needed at all ) as well as its progression ( there might be. 1 point difference, maybe, which can be dealt with respec at some point ).

[Draknalor]

I always go 16 charisma on every new character, even barbarians, fighters, etc.

The dialogue checks are just too brutal without it.

[Panda]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Charisma might be an alternative if the party doesn’t want to have an expertise character.

For example, having a dex fighter/ranger with thievery and stealth rather than a rogue, letting the sorcerer handling social encounters.

Imagine a persuasion comparison:

The sorcerer would have 2 ( proficiency ) + 3 ( charisma ), while a standard rogue would get 2 ( proficiency ) + 2 ( expertise ) + 1 ( charisma )

Along with guidance, everything is going to work exactly the same ( reason why charisma is not needed at all ) as well as its progression ( there might be. 1 point difference, maybe, which can be dealt with respec at some point ).

You can also use charisma berserker, in most situations DC is ez comparing to normal one, you will also have advantage in most cases especially when the answer is ROOOOAAAAAARRR or something like that (just use charisma and Con + giant potion)