A small oversight in part of the story (Spoilers for Shadowheart and Act 2)

[Mattee]

So firstly I just want to say that my partner and I love this game. We absolutely adore the combat and all the fun and creative ways you can think yourself out of situations. We have had an incredible time with the game so far and even despite what I am about to talk about we still love it and look forward to continuing. Having said all that...

Parts of this game are under thought. I don't think that the developers, or the writers at least, thought of some of the ways people would progress through the story. When we got to Act 2 into the Shadow Cursed Land we decided to just run around and explore instead of heading the main quest objective which was directing us toward Moonrise Towers. We ended up going north and doing a counterclockwise trip around the map and ended up finding the mausoleum before discovering other places like The House of Healing, The Waning Moon, The Toll House etc. and we decided to explore the mausoleum because Raphael was standing out the front of it.

This mausoleum turns out to be the Shar temple where there is quite a lot to explore but we ended up finding an item called The Spear of Night or something like that (and mind you this item we had to go out of our way to find it, it's easily missable). Eventually we got to the bottom and got this message warning us that if we progress any further it may lock some quests in the area because it will progress the story. So then we decided at that point to leave and go do everything else, including going to Moonrise Towers.

Right, so that's where we were, and eventually after doing everything else we could find we had to go back to the mausoleum and head into the Shadowfell and once inside this point there is a HUGE story revelation. We decided it would be best for Shadowheart to be with us this whole time, partly because I am romancing her and partly because it just felt right. But you eventually come to a point where depending on your choices you have to fight Balthazar and free the Nightsong.

The problem here is that if Shadowheart is in your party and you forget to bring the item you found in the temple earlier, The Spear of Night, Shadowheart technically can't complete her decision. The game doesn't warn you about this though. So here is what happens: spoilers

Shadowheart needs to kill the Nightsong for Shar. When you defeat Balthazar and talk to the Nightsong, Shadowheart will confront her and you will have some options, mainly to try and persuade Shadowheart from killing her. This is a really hard roll to beat, for us it was 30 and even with persuasion bonuses and advantage we had to roll a natural 20 in order to convince her not to. However even with 4 points of reroll we weren't able to. So Shadowheart then decides it's right to kill her when the Nightsong asks how she is going to be able to without a weapon to do so. The game then makes it seem like Shadowheart SUDDENLY has a change of heart, saying "I can't believe I was going to do that" or something stupid like that. She was committed to doing it, we failed the roll, but because we had put the weapon in our camp stash and didn't have it with us she was unable to kill the Nightsong and then just went on as if she decided not to.

I think this is handled really really poorly personally. It feels weird and doesn't make sense. We couldn't really understand what was happening, meanwhile all this cool stuff was happening and we were both just like "What just happened with Shadowheart?" It sucks... lol. It's the second time the game has felt like this to us, the other being when we first met Balthazar and he mentioned Ketheric looking for a relic and we just seemed to know he was, BEFORE going to Moonrise and speaking to Z'rell. I dunno. It just feels like the writers really expect everyone to go to one area before going to the rest and they weren't prepared for you not to.

The reason this is so bothersome is because the rest of the game so far has really been unlike this. There have been story decisions and moments where we've both sat with our jaws hitting the floor because we couldn't believe the game was smart enough to realise what we had done. This game is incredible, so when things like this happen they stand out a lot more in my opinion. I dunno, just weird and kinda crappy. Ruined a big moment for us and we are going to replay that whole section and do the battle again with the item in our inventory. At least that way it will make sense.

[alanc9]

Most dialogue paths doing actually end up with Shadowheart not trying to go through with it.

I think the Persuade option is a trap.

[Draknalor]

If you choose the correct dialogue options.

There is no roll and she throws the spear away by herself.

[IRMcG]

This is what happens hen you don't read the quest journal :)

[Isengrym]

Is it explicitly indicated that Shadowheart only changes her mind because she doesn't have the spear? If you and your partner do indeed redo that bit with the spear present, I would be curious to hear if/how it plays out differently.

I don't know all the ins and outs of the Nightsong decision (I've only completed one playthrough myself), but as I understand it, in most cases Shadowheart will talk like she's set on killing the Nightsong. . . and then falter at the last moment, unless the player has pushed her toward being more evil. (I've also read--but not tested--that if Shadowheart prays at the altar to Shar earlier in the Gauntlet and chooses the "give yourself over entirely" option, it will affirm her faith, so she absolutely WILL kill the Nightsong in that case.)

In my own game, I was playing a pretty good character, and Shadowheart hadn't left my party since I'd recruited her on the beach. Her approval was at the low end of exceptional when we got to the Nightsong. When I saw the DC of the persuasion check, I just reloaded and chose non-check-based dialogue options to plead with her. She got very testy and told my Tav she'd step over his dead body to kill the Nightsong if she had to. I didn't want to force a fight with her, so I backed down and took the option "This is wrong, but I can't afford to lose you" (or something close to that). Shadowheart got out the spear, headed toward the Nightsong. . . and the Nightsong mentioned something about Shadowheart's childhood that made her hesitate. She faltered, then threw the spear away.

My heart was in my mouth during that sequence. I really thought she was going to do it, and immediately afterward, Shadowheart was berating herself for *not* going through with it.

All this is to say, I think you and your partner *may* have simply experienced a slight variation on the usual Nightsong event. Shadowheart sounds like she's determined to do Shar's will, but really she's trying to talk herself into it, and when the moment comes, if nothing has actually driven her more firmly into Shar's embrace since the beginning of the story, her conscience will win out. I think not having the spear may just be the excuse she needed, in your case.

Again, I can't be sure, and if you retry it with the spear present, please post the result!

Also, I don't mean to say that there are no inconsistencies anywhere. Your instance of your party knowing about the relic when they haven't heard of it yet sounds like one. I do think Larian slipped up here and there, but as you say, those slip-ups stand out because they do such an outstanding job overall of accounting for variables.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by Isengrym:

Is it explicitly indicated that Shadowheart only changes her mind because she doesn't have the spear?

Absolutely not. Your experience was typical.

[IRMcG]

Originally posted by Isengrym:

I don't know all the ins and outs of the Nightsong decision (I've only completed one playthrough myself), but as I understand it, in most cases Shadowheart will talk like she's set on killing the Nightsong. . . and then falter at the last moment, unless the player has pushed her toward being more evil. (I've also read--but not tested--that if Shadowheart prays at the altar to Shar earlier in the Gauntlet and chooses the "give yourself over entirely" option, it will affirm her faith, so she absolutely WILL kill the Nightsong in that case.)

I just got past that area on a full on "indulge my Durge" run and expected that would be the case if I pushed Shadowheart to accept Shar whenever there was an option as above, but I still had to push her into killing the Nightsong when she looked like she was about to change her mind. Pretty sure she'll always let her live if you let her decide. Which might have been interesting (or suicidal :)) since I'd offed Isobel.

[Mattee]

Originally posted by IRMcG:

This is what happens hen you don't read the quest journal :)

The game just shoves in a random plot change? Sounds pretty lame...

[Mattee]

Originally posted by Draknalor:

If you choose the correct dialogue options.

There is no roll and she throws the spear away by herself.

What if you don't have the spear? Also what if you don't find the spear? My point is that there feels like there's a whole scene missing.

[Mattee]

Originally posted by Isengrym:

Is it explicitly indicated that Shadowheart only changes her mind because she doesn't have the spear? If you and your partner do indeed redo that bit with the spear present, I would be curious to hear if/how it plays out differently.

I don't know all the ins and outs of the Nightsong decision (I've only completed one playthrough myself), but as I understand it, in most cases Shadowheart will talk like she's set on killing the Nightsong. . . and then falter at the last moment, unless the player has pushed her toward being more evil. (I've also read--but not tested--that if Shadowheart prays at the altar to Shar earlier in the Gauntlet and chooses the "give yourself over entirely" option, it will affirm her faith, so she absolutely WILL kill the Nightsong in that case.)

In my own game, I was playing a pretty good character, and Shadowheart hadn't left my party since I'd recruited her on the beach. Her approval was at the low end of exceptional when we got to the Nightsong. When I saw the DC of the persuasion check, I just reloaded and chose non-check-based dialogue options to plead with her. She got very testy and told my Tav she'd step over his dead body to kill the Nightsong if she had to. I didn't want to force a fight with her, so I backed down and took the option "This is wrong, but I can't afford to lose you" (or something close to that). Shadowheart got out the spear, headed toward the Nightsong. . . and the Nightsong mentioned something about Shadowheart's childhood that made her hesitate. She faltered, then threw the spear away.

My heart was in my mouth during that sequence. I really thought she was going to do it, and immediately afterward, Shadowheart was berating herself for *not* going through with it.

All this is to say, I think you and your partner *may* have simply experienced a slight variation on the usual Nightsong event. Shadowheart sounds like she's determined to do Shar's will, but really she's trying to talk herself into it, and when the moment comes, if nothing has actually driven her more firmly into Shar's embrace since the beginning of the story, her conscience will win out. I think not having the spear may just be the excuse she needed, in your case.

Again, I can't be sure, and if you retry it with the spear present, please post the result!

Also, I don't mean to say that there are no inconsistencies anywhere. Your instance of your party knowing about the relic when they haven't heard of it yet sounds like one. I do think Larian slipped up here and there, but as you say, those slip-ups stand out because they do such an outstanding job overall of accounting for variables.

I will the next time we play, maybe on the weekend. Everyone seems to be saying it's kinda hard to get her to go through with it anyway but how were we to know? She showed zero doubt of Shar up until that point and her prayers before entering the fell bolstered that. I don't get why people are telling me it's our fault.

Anyways thanks for leaving a civil response.

EDIT: also to be clear, it does not indicate Shadowheart changes her mind because she doesn't have the spear. They don't even mention the spear. Nightsong just asks her how she plans to do it and then Shadowhearts immediate response is to turn to you and say she can't believe she was going to do that. It's just so... sudden... and weird.

[Mike Garrison]

The spear is not as easily missable as you assume it is. If you try to descend to the entrance to the Shadowfell without having picked up the spear, Shadowheart will stop you and tell you that Lady Shar has told her she is supposed to find the spear in the library.

And if you pick up the spear before you know that you need it, Shadowheart will say, "This looks important. I should hang on to it."

And the spear is discussed in several of the books scattered around the library.

But ... yeah ... I guess if you miss that or forgot about it, then oh well.

[Mattee]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

The spear is not as easily missable as you assume it is. If you try to descend to the entrance to the Shadowfell without having picked up the spear, Shadowheart will stop you and tell you that Lady Shar has told her she is supposed to find the spear in the library.

And if you pick up the spear before you know that you need it, Shadowheart will say, "This looks important. I should hang on to it."

And the spear is discussed in several of the books scattered around the library.

But ... yeah ... I guess if you miss that or forgot about it, then oh well.

Ah, we found the spear ourselves so we didn't get that scene. That's good to know, if that had happened we'd have assumed it was way more important. I know it adds a journal entry but if you can put yourself in our shoes we spent an entire evening going through that temple head to toe, then realised if we were to continue other quests would lock. We didn't want the tieflings to die which we assumed would probably happen, so we decided to back out and go to Moonrise. But this was over the course of several days, in between life things happening. So we stopped there and left it for another day, then when we got back to the game we did the house of healing, the waning moon, some other things, then when we got to Moonrise we stopped again. Then on another day we explored that and went to go to the Shadowfell after all this, two or three days of playing.

I'm the one who put the spear into the camp box, the spear isn't coloured like most other quests items, it's blue. I dunno man, it just slipped my mind about the journal entry and here we are. I just think they should make a bigger deal of it that's all. Maybe Shadowheart should say something at the shadowfell doorway about making sure to bring it. There's already a scene that tells you to go find it as you say.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by Mattee:

EDIT: also to be clear, it does not indicate Shadowheart changes her mind because she doesn't have the spear. They don't even mention the spear. Nightsong just asks her how she plans to do it and then Shadowhearts immediate response is to turn to you and say she can't believe she was going to do that. It's just so... sudden... and weird.

The weirdest part is when the player considers getting more info with

"She knows something about you. Spare her, and see what she has to say"

Aka "Don't kill her right now, but first listen what she has to say".

And Shadowheart tosses the spear into the void because reasons.

[Mike Garrison]

Originally posted by Mattee:

We didn't want the tieflings to die which we assumed would probably happen, so we decided to back out and go to Moonrise.

You are correct. That is what would have happened. (Happened to me in my first playthrough of Act 2.)

[Mattee]

Originally posted by Kappa:

Originally posted by Mattee:

EDIT: also to be clear, it does not indicate Shadowheart changes her mind because she doesn't have the spear. They don't even mention the spear. Nightsong just asks her how she plans to do it and then Shadowhearts immediate response is to turn to you and say she can't believe she was going to do that. It's just so... sudden... and weird.

The weirdest part is when the player considers getting more info with

"She knows something about you. Spare her, and see what she has to say"

Aka "Don't kill her right now, but first listen what she has to say".

And Shadowheart tosses the spear into the void because reasons.

Man if we had the spear there'd be no complaints here from me. I just happened to not bring it because we did things out of order and we forgot. It just sucks that the game doesn't make it double extra super duper clear that you really need to bring this item.

[Jarsonne]

All in all, yes there's a rude point here when not spoiled and when not playing with Shadowheart at right time, and when wanting force a specific choice, not that it's impossible but more difficult without the spear.

It's still not broken at all. Eventually for some reason, the player is cornered in the location, so can't make a proper reorg, that's what's the most unexpected and not anticipated. On another way from a load back perspective, it's not much stuff to redo by loading before enter, prepare better, and redo;