Woodland being needs a nerf

[Gearwar]

I am sorry to say, but Woodland being needs a nerf. This lvl 4 druid spell summons a woodland being that can cast not only spike growth every round, she can also conjure a seperate minion that will persist even if the the woodland spirit itself perishes. If you buff her weapon with Shillelagh she hits about as hard as a warrior with a good 2h weapon. In addition she can cast a root spell on hit, outside the regular root spell, not that this really matters since you can just cast spiked growth every round.

Srsly, this little deviant trivializes so many encounters, she is more powerful than any lvl 4 minor Elemental, any lvl 5 major elemental summon and the only summon that gives her pause is the lvl 6 major Air elemental.

Spiked growth needs to be on a short rest CD on the summon.

[[TG] zac]

I mean in that sense its no different then table top.

Magic users have been making martials feel useless there since 3.0 days 20+ years ago.

[DontMisunderstand]

I had the same feeling when I first unlocked it in my druid playthrough, but it falls off super hard the moment act 3 starts. The moment you have level 5 spell slots, Woodland Being starts dying before they get to move. The problem is the abysmal hp pool and mediocre AC. Truth be told, I don't actually think Woodland Being manages to hold up for the final Thorm fight either.

Yes, the minor elementals suck. All of the major elementals are game-warpingly powerful simply because they flat out will survive better than your party members, and they do decent damage, while also having nonsensical mobility.


Your comments about Shilleleigh are ridiculous. Woodland Being dies in 1 hit reliably. Putting her into melee combat means wasting a level 4 spell slot. At that point, just cast Moonbeam instead. The level 2 version would be better than using your Woodland Being that way.

[Hex]

Originally posted by TG zac:

I mean in that sense its no different then table top.

Magic users have been making martials feel useless there since 3.0 days 20+ years ago.

That's because people fundamentally misunderstand the point of Martial classes. Ultimately, their job is to keep enemies from casters. Your super-power mage won't do much when they have a Dragon slapping them in the face.

[Gearwar]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

I had the same feeling when I first unlocked it in my druid playthrough, but it falls off super hard the moment act 3 starts. The moment you have level 5 spell slots, Woodland Being starts dying before they get to move. The problem is the abysmal hp pool and mediocre AC. Truth be told, I don't actually think Woodland Being manages to hold up for the final Thorm fight either.

Yes, the minor elementals suck. All of the major elementals are game-warpingly powerful simply because they flat out will survive better than your party members, and they do decent damage, while also having nonsensical mobility.


Your comments about Shilleleigh are ridiculous. Woodland Being dies in 1 hit reliably. Putting her into melee combat means wasting a level 4 spell slot. At that point, just cast Moonbeam instead. The level 2 version would be better than using your Woodland Being that way.

They don't with all the rest of the buffs you get. You can stack up her HP so high she survives almost every encounter in the first turn, and if she does, you can just move her out of the way and all she does is be a constant aoe spiked growth caster. You just cast spiked growth and move it out of the vicinity. Done. She deals so much damage, cause the AI is stupid.

2 Woodland beings in the party can prolly carry the halsin event on their own.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Gearwar:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

I had the same feeling when I first unlocked it in my druid playthrough, but it falls off super hard the moment act 3 starts. The moment you have level 5 spell slots, Woodland Being starts dying before they get to move. The problem is the abysmal hp pool and mediocre AC. Truth be told, I don't actually think Woodland Being manages to hold up for the final Thorm fight either.

Yes, the minor elementals suck. All of the major elementals are game-warpingly powerful simply because they flat out will survive better than your party members, and they do decent damage, while also having nonsensical mobility.


Your comments about Shilleleigh are ridiculous. Woodland Being dies in 1 hit reliably. Putting her into melee combat means wasting a level 4 spell slot. At that point, just cast Moonbeam instead. The level 2 version would be better than using your Woodland Being that way.

They don't with all the rest of the buffs you get. You can stack up her HP so high she survives almost every encounter in the first turn, and if she does, you can just move her out of the way and all she does is be a constant aoe spiked growth caster. You just cast spiked growth and move it out of the vicinity. Done. She deals so much damage, cause the AI is stupid.

2 Woodland beings in the party can prolly carry the halsin event on their own.

And what about the vast majority of encounters, where more than one enemy goes before the Woodland being? Maximum buffs don't let her survive 2 hits, they might not even let her survive one still.

Most of the enemies after you unlock 4th level spells have ways around walking on the spikes to get to you, and will actively not do it because of that. Yes, there is a solid 2 hours of gameplay where Woodland Being feels like the best thing possible. For a game where skipping almost everything still results in an 80 hour playthrough.

[Gearwar]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Gearwar:

They don't with all the rest of the buffs you get. You can stack up her HP so high she survives almost every encounter in the first turn, and if she does, you can just move her out of the way and all she does is be a constant aoe spiked growth caster. You just cast spiked growth and move it out of the vicinity. Done. She deals so much damage, cause the AI is stupid.

2 Woodland beings in the party can prolly carry the halsin event on their own.

And what about the vast majority of encounters, where more than one enemy goes before the Woodland being? Maximum buffs don't let her survive 2 hits, they might not even let her survive one still.

Most of the enemies after you unlock 4th level spells have ways around walking on the spikes to get to you, and will actively not do it because of that. Yes, there is a solid 2 hours of gameplay where Woodland Being feels like the best thing possible. For a game where skipping almost everything still results in an 80 hour playthrough.

It doesn't change the fact that most enemies do not focus on the woodland being, and once she gets a turn, she just dominates the battlefield.

I am not here discussing "what ifs" with you mate. The fact is that she is way too powerful for a lvl 4 spell. Her pet is powerful as hell too, its only lacking movement, but still, it persists after her death.

Spiked growth needs to be on a short rest cooldown and the being is fine. Strong still, but fine. As it is right now, that thing can decimate entire encounters if you just use her right.

Example: If you return to moonrise towers in act 2 and everyone is waiting for you, that lvl 4 woodland creature will basically kill half the enemies there by itself. Nevermind combining it with Wall of fire (a lvl 4 spell btw).

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Gearwar:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

And what about the vast majority of encounters, where more than one enemy goes before the Woodland being? Maximum buffs don't let her survive 2 hits, they might not even let her survive one still.

Most of the enemies after you unlock 4th level spells have ways around walking on the spikes to get to you, and will actively not do it because of that. Yes, there is a solid 2 hours of gameplay where Woodland Being feels like the best thing possible. For a game where skipping almost everything still results in an 80 hour playthrough.

It doesn't change the fact that most enemies do not focus on the woodland being, and once she gets a turn, she just dominates the battlefield.

I am not here discussing "what ifs" with you mate. The fact is that she is way too powerful for a lvl 4 spell. Her pet is powerful as hell too, its only lacking movement, but still, it persists after her death.

Spiked growth needs to be on a short rest cooldown and the being is fine. Strong still, but fine. As it is right now, that thing can decimate entire encounters if you just use her right.

Example: If you return to moonrise towers in act 2 and everyone is waiting for you, that lvl 4 woodland creature will basically kill half the enemies there by itself. Nevermind combining it with Wall of fire (a lvl 4 spell btw).

I'm not discussing what-ifs either. I'm literally telling you the facts of the game, as a person who literally did abuse this strategy to the maximum possible extent during my playthrough. You are objectively incorrect about how powerful the strategy is, solely because it's very good in maybe 4 fights total.

Food for thought. If you can cast Conjure Woodland Being, you can also cast Spike Growth yourself. Using a level 4 spell slot to NOT upcast a level 2 spell is just bad. The ability to move the spike growth area of effect is a tradeoff for using a significantly more important resource to produce it.

[Gearwar]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Gearwar:

It doesn't change the fact that most enemies do not focus on the woodland being, and once she gets a turn, she just dominates the battlefield.

I am not here discussing "what ifs" with you mate. The fact is that she is way too powerful for a lvl 4 spell. Her pet is powerful as hell too, its only lacking movement, but still, it persists after her death.

Spiked growth needs to be on a short rest cooldown and the being is fine. Strong still, but fine. As it is right now, that thing can decimate entire encounters if you just use her right.

Example: If you return to moonrise towers in act 2 and everyone is waiting for you, that lvl 4 woodland creature will basically kill half the enemies there by itself. Nevermind combining it with Wall of fire (a lvl 4 spell btw).

I'm not discussing what-ifs either. I'm literally telling you the facts of the game, as a person who literally did abuse this strategy to the maximum possible extent during my playthrough. You are objectively incorrect about how powerful the strategy is, solely because it's very good in maybe 4 fights total.

I am have been absuing it too in multiple playthroughs, in honor mode twice. So either you are wrong or I am wrong. I say its too OP you say, its not as Op as I say it is.

Feels to me you are not using it correctly if you can't see how Op it is.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Gearwar:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

I'm not discussing what-ifs either. I'm literally telling you the facts of the game, as a person who literally did abuse this strategy to the maximum possible extent during my playthrough. You are objectively incorrect about how powerful the strategy is, solely because it's very good in maybe 4 fights total.

I am have been absuing it too in multiple playthroughs, in honor mode twice. So either you are wrong or I am wrong. I say its too OP you say, its not as Op as I say it is.

Feels to me you are not using it correctly if you can't see how Op it is.

No, I just recognize the difference between an effective niche and an OP strategy. Casting Haste on the martials is an OP strategy. It's always game-winningly strong, it's always effective, and it's roughly equal in how effective. Conjure Woodland Beings auto-wins extremely specific combat encounters while accomplishing literally nothing a significant amount of the time. The enemy AI, will almost always go for a kill if they can do so. Unless you suck at building your party, that means the Woodland Being will be targeted first almost every time.

Look. I cheesed the maximum number of Dark Justiciars in the Temple of Shar using Conjure Woodland Beings with the Spike Growth spam, just to get extra xp. I know how to kite enemies to death with it. I also know WHEN it's effective. And most of the time, it's not. In order to make it effective, you need an arena with natural choke points, a large horde of melee enemies and/or the ability to retreat beyond the threat range for archers and casters, and a LOT of extra space to make Conjure Woodland Beings better than just casting Spike Growth yourself.

[Nauct]

Camp Casting is what needs a nerf if anything. Same with being to long rest 1000 times a playthrough. It's a single player game, just limit yourself

[[TG] zac]

Originally posted by Hex:

Originally posted by TG zac:

I mean in that sense its no different then table top.

Magic users have been making martials feel useless there since 3.0 days 20+ years ago.

That's because people fundamentally misunderstand the point of Martial classes. Ultimately, their job is to keep enemies from casters. Your super-power mage won't do much when they have a Dragon slapping them in the face.

A caster played properly can often do that themselves given the amount of control options most of them have.

And since 5e made getting heavy or medium armor & shield proficiency so easy compared to earlier editions your casters will often be just as tanky as martials.
(especially when you factor in buff spells)

Even more so since 5e also made it so people don't get an attack of opportunity when you cast spells in their melee range (many spells causing this was actually one of the things that held casters in check in previous editions)

Its honestly one of the reasons I like pathfinder 2e more in table top.
Due to how their combat system and runes for weapons work martials will often outscale magic users when it comes to single target damage and will often have more skill profs them magic casters.
Their combat system also greatly rewards athletics, intimidation, deception etc... in combat by letting you use them to debuff enemies.
The magic users while capable of good single target are there much more for AOE (the martial after all cant hit 5 people at once with an attack) and utility that magic offers.

[[TG] zac]

Originally posted by Gearwar:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

And what about the vast majority of encounters, where more than one enemy goes before the Woodland being? Maximum buffs don't let her survive 2 hits, they might not even let her survive one still.

Most of the enemies after you unlock 4th level spells have ways around walking on the spikes to get to you, and will actively not do it because of that. Yes, there is a solid 2 hours of gameplay where Woodland Being feels like the best thing possible. For a game where skipping almost everything still results in an 80 hour playthrough.

It doesn't change the fact that most enemies do not focus on the woodland being, and once she gets a turn, she just dominates the battlefield.

I am not here discussing "what ifs" with you mate. The fact is that she is way too powerful for a lvl 4 spell. Her pet is powerful as hell too, its only lacking movement, but still, it persists after her death.

Spiked growth needs to be on a short rest cooldown and the being is fine. Strong still, but fine. As it is right now, that thing can decimate entire encounters if you just use her right.

Example: If you return to moonrise towers in act 2 and everyone is waiting for you, that lvl 4 woodland creature will basically kill half the enemies there by itself. Nevermind combining it with Wall of fire (a lvl 4 spell btw).

if you play on higher difficulty many things will flat out ignore summoned creatures.
Many of them will also make use of jump and various ways to get around any terrain that would hurt or slow them.

[Gearwar]

Originally posted by TG zac:

Originally posted by Gearwar:

It doesn't change the fact that most enemies do not focus on the woodland being, and once she gets a turn, she just dominates the battlefield.

I am not here discussing "what ifs" with you mate. The fact is that she is way too powerful for a lvl 4 spell. Her pet is powerful as hell too, its only lacking movement, but still, it persists after her death.

Spiked growth needs to be on a short rest cooldown and the being is fine. Strong still, but fine. As it is right now, that thing can decimate entire encounters if you just use her right.

Example: If you return to moonrise towers in act 2 and everyone is waiting for you, that lvl 4 woodland creature will basically kill half the enemies there by itself. Nevermind combining it with Wall of fire (a lvl 4 spell btw).

if you play on higher difficulty many things will flat out ignore summoned creatures.
Many of them will also make use of jump and various ways to get around any terrain that would hurt or slow them.

Yes I know, I exclusively play on honour mode (tactician before).. hence my point. Look... the game is not balanced anyway and you can abuse it so badly, you just murder everything if you min max.

Plenty of builds that just solo the whole run.

But that spell still needs a nerf. Everytime I have a druid, every single time, all the options given to you just flatout pale in comparison to woodland being. Nothing comes even remotely close. It doesn't even take up summoning slot either.

[[TG] zac]

Originally posted by Gearwar:

Originally posted by TG zac:

if you play on higher difficulty many things will flat out ignore summoned creatures.
Many of them will also make use of jump and various ways to get around any terrain that would hurt or slow them.

Yes I know, I exclusively play on honour mode (tactician before).. hence my point. Look... the game is not balanced anyway and you can abuse it so badly, you just murder everything if you min max.

Plenty of builds that just solo the whole run.

But that spell still needs a nerf. Everytime I have a druid, every single time, all the options given to you just flatout pale in comparison to woodland being. Nothing comes even remotely close. It doesn't even take up summoning slot either.

I mean you could go circle of the land, owlbear and a level dip in monk.
Several of them let you get haste, that combined with the monk dip and going full wisdom makes you obscenely tanky while being able to attack 6x a turn for 2d8+1d6+4 each attack by the time your level 12.

I have seen halsin solo entire fights that way.

[Gearwar]

Originally posted by TG zac:

Originally posted by Gearwar:

Yes I know, I exclusively play on honour mode (tactician before).. hence my point. Look... the game is not balanced anyway and you can abuse it so badly, you just murder everything if you min max.

Plenty of builds that just solo the whole run.

But that spell still needs a nerf. Everytime I have a druid, every single time, all the options given to you just flatout pale in comparison to woodland being. Nothing comes even remotely close. It doesn't even take up summoning slot either.

I mean you could go circle of the land, owlbear and a level dip in monk.
Several of them let you get haste, that combined with the monk dip and going full wisdom makes you obscenely tanky while being able to attack 6x a turn for 2d8+1d6+4 each attack by the time your level 12.

I have seen halsin solo entire fights that way.

Why are you talking about hsate?