Spells are useless

[Indrid]

Be a caster, use spell, miss, miss, miss, miss
be a warrior, do 10 attacks in one turn and actually deal damage
spells try to incapacitate an enemy and miss, direct attacks incapacitate them faster because you kill them
full meelee party is the best, casters suck in this game

[Dr.Abscondus]

Wizards are an over powered class so they have been deliberately hampered in early game to maintain balance. So you use your wizard differently in early game. Use Magic Missile which never misses, but mostly concentrate on AOE crowd control. Grease is not that useful since it burns, but Sleet Storm is devastating and it lasts for 10 turns. My wizard casting Sleet Storm was all I really asked of him early game. It was enough to put most of the enemy on the ground where they were helpless. Later on the wizard gets some very powerful spells that always work, like the Elemental Summons, which is like adding another party member or two. Giving your wizard the Elemental Adept feat which removes the targets resistance to the element you choose makes him even more deadly. The wizard's capabilities change during the game more than other classes and you just have to adapt to that.

[Lord Adorable]

Krill tissue.

[I Denizen I]

DnD 5e itself, was designed to massively nerf casters, wizards especially.

Larian doubled down on this by making way more spells concentration required, and massively reduced CC duration timers.

Then they added caster gear at a ratio of about 1 : 5 to Melee/Ranged, I mean caster gear in act 1 is atrociously bad in comparison.

The fix they implemented was to make Cantrip's scale with levels, these are supposed to function like Melee base attack functions.

The downside is, Melee base attack gets more exciting as you go up levels because you find interesting items that are fun, and these enhance and change base attacks.

Cantrips at level 1, is cantrip's at level 10, the only real change is they deal more damage.

Iirc there are 2 or 3 stackable items that allow adding of Int modifier, or SPC modifier, so your cantrip's will deal a ton of damage, this is how you deal with the massively reduced spell slots.

Back when I was playing, and I don't know if they fixed it since then, getting knocked prone, gave the incapacitated debuff temporarily, which makes you auto fail a concentration check, no save, auto break concentration, and it totally negated all the feats you could take (making con save a proficiency, getting advantage on all Con checks) even though you were not incapacitated, you stand up again instantly.

Or if an attack did 5 phys, 5 fire, 5 cold, it made you make 3 separate Con Checks, instead of a single save against 15 damage, which is how it is supposed to function.

People claiming "casters are fine." are wrong, sure you can deal with it, and occasionally they can do something cool, but other classes can always do something better.

They pay a heavy price for some utility spells that make the game more bearable.

[I Denizen I]

Publicado originalmente por Dr.Abscondus:

Wizards are an over powered class so they have been deliberately hampered in early game to maintain balance. So you use your wizard differently in early game. Use Magic Missile which never misses, but mostly concentrate on AOE crowd control. Grease is not that useful since it burns, but Sleet Storm is devastating and it lasts for 10 turns. My wizard casting Sleet Storm was all I really asked of him early game. It was enough to put most of the enemy on the ground where they were helpless. Later on the wizard gets some very powerful spells that always work, like the Elemental Summons, which is like adding another party member or two. Giving your wizard the Elemental Adept feat which removes the targets resistance to the element you choose makes him even more deadly. The wizard's capabilities change during the game more than other classes and you just have to adapt to that.

Except it doesn't remove immunity.

All removing resistance does is make it deal normal damage, still modified by any saving throw to negate or half it.

Elemental adept should also reduce immunity to resistance, then it would be worth it.

Remind me again, how many feats do fighters or rangers have to take to deal normal damage?

Summons? please, 99% of the time, your better of using your cantrip's to just deal damage, or combining a cantrip with metamagic twin spell to deal twice as much damage, on any fight that lasts long enough for a summons to be potentially useful, they get annihilated fast.

Even the top tier summons are pants, by the time you can cast the spell, having 1 attack a round dealing 10-20 damage is just not good enough.

[Pyromaiden]

Publicado originalmente por I Denizen I:

People claiming "casters are fine." are wrong,

The majority of the most OP builds for this game are quite literally either full casters of mostly-caster.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Casters are broken and can delete entire bosses with the right builds. Skill issue.

[ArAweLnINA]

The problem is not that spells are useless, the problem is that we have too less level 5+ spell slots. Gale could be roaming lategame if it wasn't about magic exhaustion.

[I Denizen I]

Publicado originalmente por Pyromania™:

Publicado originalmente por I Denizen I:

People claiming "casters are fine." are wrong,

The majority of the most OP builds for this game are quite literally either full casters of mostly-caster.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Casters are broken and can delete entire bosses with the right builds. Skill issue.

I beat this game on Tactician (back when it released and I have 400 hours in it.), I've seen Melee builds pretty much 1 hit most of the bosses in this game, you're talking like casters can do something other builds can't, and that is simply not true.

And I love how you completely ignored everything else I said, to post your trite "skill issue"

BG3 is not a hard game, it's not a high skill game, and it's certainly not a complex character building game.

[AokiYakumo]

The discussion's done at this point, so . . .

laughs in Swords Bard.

-----

But seriously, anyone trying to make the claim that spellcasters are useless in BG3 clearly have a skill issue because the right spell setup can break the game apart at the very seams.

Got a problem with the Goblin Camp? Provoke the camp through a Cloud of Daggers.

Meenlocks giving you sh*t? The Light cantrip shuts that sh*t down.

Want your martials to hit ever harder? Haste the bish and watch them clap cheeks.

Need to buff your summons? Aid, Heroes' Feast, Crusader's Mantle.

Need to debuff enemies? Faerie Fire, Bane, Slow.

Having issues getting things to stick? Check saves, use caster items like Melf's First Staff, stack conditions like Reverb, Arcane Acuity, or Mental Fatigue.

Legit my first ever run through BG3 was with a straight-classed Lore Bard. Dedicated caster. Him & Gale absolutely OBLITERATED fights. The ones they couldn't? I had SHeart there to support and I kept Halsin (a caster), Wyll (a caster), or Jaheira (another caster) on stock to cover holes. Lae & Karlach got use for those moments where I needed the casters to buff the crap out of a martial - like against W'Wargasz or Grym - but for the most part it was carried by, get this, casters.

[Hobocop]

Publicado originalmente por I Denizen I:

DnD 5e itself, was designed to massively nerf casters, wizards especially.

Larian doubled down on this by making way more spells concentration required, and massively reduced CC duration timers.

The fix they implemented was to make Cantrip's scale with levels, these are supposed to function like Melee base attack functions.

The downside is, Melee base attack gets more exciting as you go up levels because you find interesting items that are fun, and these enhance and change base attacks.

Cantrips at level 1, is cantrip's at level 10, the only real change is they deal more damage.

The spells that require concentration in BG3 are the same spells that require it on TT 5e. In fact, BG3 is often more generous with them because many were changed to last until Long Rest instead of lasting an hour or whatever.

Cantrips also scale with level on TT 5e, and there are plenty of items that synergize with cantrip use (Necklace of Elemental Augmentation for one).

Missing basic stuff about the system like this kinda brings your assertions into question.

[T.Lightning]

Publicado originalmente por Indrid:

no, what limits me is not my imagination, what limits me is that I literally cant hit with spells. I use stuff like grease creatively

man is obviously using the BEST spell GREASE , kekw my friend. nice bait

[JayPAC]

Spells are very much not useless. There are spells that always hit for example. Magic missile being the first. For second level, there shatter or as people call it "the poor man's fireball" for level 3 there is fireball, or the warlock gets hunger of hadar. Magic missile just hits. The other examples are spells with a saving throw that still deal half damage on successful save. If you're not hitting, that's either because you're using the wrong spells or because your characters aren't set up properly. If you want to have a good time in this game, it's pretty simple. On character creation, 16 in your primary attribute, 16 in con and 14 in dex. The rest of the points can be thrown around as you please.

But where spellcasters shine is their utility. I never play a playthrough without a wizard/bard/druid/cleric in my party, Longstrider, Haste, Hold Person/Monster, Slow, Darkness, Fog Cloud, Freedom of Movement, Warding Bond, Death Ward, Shield, Feather Fall, Aid and the best spell in the entire game: Heroe's Feast. All spells that I will use at least once per playthrough, if not once per long rest.

The most fun I had in the game was with a full caster party. A Warlock who later became somewhat of a martial class, A Sorceror with 2 levels in wizard, a Lore Bard and a Light Cleric. At some point I stopped using healing spells, as we didn't need them. As nothing was surviving past turn 1 or 2 if it wasn't a Boss enemy with Boss health.

Not to mention the absolutely amazing AoE and Area Denial that you will get from Insect Plague, Wall of Flame, Hunger of Hadar and Spike growth. Spike growth by itself can carry you through to level 5 by itself if you play into it with people who can push enemies back.

Like the Gnoll fights in Act 1, spike growth by itself absolutely trivializes them. Especially that hard fight with the miniboss Gnoll.



Now there are things that ARE useless but that's not because of the spell but because of who has them. You can completely ignore the firebolt cantrips for Astarion and Shadowheart. Both get them because of their race. Those two cantrips are from the wizard spell list and as such, use int as their spellcasting modifier by default. None of them have int as a primary attribute so you should just take that cantrip off of their hotbar and pretend they don't have it.

[I Denizen I]

Publicado originalmente por Hobocop:

Publicado originalmente por I Denizen I:

DnD 5e itself, was designed to massively nerf casters, wizards especially.

Larian doubled down on this by making way more spells concentration required, and massively reduced CC duration timers.

The fix they implemented was to make Cantrip's scale with levels, these are supposed to function like Melee base attack functions.

The downside is, Melee base attack gets more exciting as you go up levels because you find interesting items that are fun, and these enhance and change base attacks.

Cantrips at level 1, is cantrip's at level 10, the only real change is they deal more damage.

The spells that require concentration in BG3 are the same spells that require it on TT 5e. In fact, BG3 is often more generous with them because many were changed to last until Long Rest instead of lasting an hour or whatever.

Cantrips also scale with level on TT 5e, and there are plenty of items that synergize with cantrip use (Necklace of Elemental Augmentation for one).

Missing basic stuff about the system like this kinda brings your assertions into question.

When I mentioned a fix for Cantrips, I was referring to the DnD5e rules, as that is what was being referenced by the nerfing casters/wizards. and their attempt at balancing was to give mages an auto attack function similar to non casters, that scaled equivalently.

I also mentioned that several items are specific to scaling cantrip damage. (except you cut that part out when you decided to pick which parts would make your argument look better.)

Generous? Ritual spells can be cast without using a spell slot, they simply made them last till long rest as a quality of life change, you can cast them all day long anyway.

I'm pretty sure they added concentration to spells that are not concentration in the 5e rulebook, I'll have to double check.

I didn't miss anything, you just cut it out of my post when you quoted me.

[I Denizen I]

Who said they are useless?

I said they can be useful, but Melee/ranged do it better, and have access to way way better gear.

Someone actually wants to discuss exactly what I said, let me know, otherwise I'm done replying to this cherry picking, or inventing arguments.

Edited :

Ok the OP says it, and it's definitely a bit hyperbolic, you can make some pretty powerful casters, but it takes way more effort, has way more downtime, and has less interesting gear options.

[The Fountaineer 🖋]

Publicado originalmente por id795078477:

Publicado originalmente por Indrid:

Be a caster, use spell, miss, miss, miss, miss
be a warrior, do 10 attacks in one turn and actually deal damage
spells try to incapacitate an enemy and miss, direct attacks incapacitate them faster because you kill them
full meelee party is the best, casters suck in this game

The biggest lie that those who claim the game is balanced will tell you is that "spell-casters make up for the lack of damage though their CC". The lie of it is simple: while the caster tries to CC the enemy and do whatever else, the martial classes can just kill that enemy, likely 2-3 times. Death is the best form of CC after all.

The balance is completely busted when it comes to martials vs. spell-casters. At least they (somewhat) address it in HM with the new rules on extra attacks, but it's still not great. Someone in Larian was clearly liking the play-style of a martial character too much.

Cringe damage creep, numbers go up metalord.

[Nadine]

I literally kill everything with my casters on endgame tactician mode. Maybe reset your skills or something.