Turning the Nightsong Over to Larroakan

[Metallicus]

Is there any value to keeping the Nightsong around or is the reward for turning her over to Larroakan the easier and more lucrative route to go?

[Jarsonne]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

Lol, ok, looks like morale can have too many meaning, your example is showing how ethics is not your concern, this can make wonder why RPG writers need put care on that in their writing and choices design, they'd better use choices, sword or armor, spell book or 10K gold.

Oh no, ethics matter to me. A lot. For example, mutual respect.

In the case of Aylin, she is highly disrespectful to Shadowheart, somehow both bestial and pompous, plus presumptive, so I smash some respect into her. If only I could banish her to the Seven Heavens too. Larroakan treats me like a tool, so I flip the script and feed him to Aylin before righteous smiting.

Larroakan's loot, XP, gold etc mean very little. By this stage of the game we're laden with legendary items, have 50,000+ gold and 'allies' typically get in the way.

You are right about writers needing to take care about choice design. Here's my big hint. Give and respect a player to make meaningful choice. Don't make your favourite beloved NPC automatically join the player's camp. Don't make them unkillable. Favouritism is very ugly to behold.

If you kill people you believe they lack show a respect high enough to you, that's hardly any ethic.

You seem put a lot too much value to respect, there's a social behavior of politeness to not show disrespect by default, but past keep job or friend or what you want, nothing require show respect.

[Tresh]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Disrespect to the person who chose to free you from said prison - only after you revealed an aspect of their past, with the promise of more to be revealed.

And then can't be eff'ed to complete the deal because... sex crazed.

And we don't even get the option to kill her and Speak with Dead for answer, because she's so precious to the writers. A right Mary Sue.

She hasn't seen her beloved for a hundred years and was convinced she had lost her for good, because Isobel - *checks notes* - actually ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ died.
Aylin doesn't know Isobel lives once again until after she told Shadowheart all will be revealed in due time.

Shadowheart does get her answers. Having to wait a single night to let the lunar lesbians catch up with each other isn't that much to ask.

I am also willing to excuse her rudeness because a hundred years of isolation only interrupted by occasional ritualistic murder isn't helpful in maintaining social skills.

[Jarsonne]

Originally posted by Tresh:

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Disrespect to the person who chose to free you from said prison - only after you revealed an aspect of their past, with the promise of more to be revealed.

And then can't be eff'ed to complete the deal because... sex crazed.

And we don't even get the option to kill her and Speak with Dead for answer, because she's so precious to the writers. A right Mary Sue.

She hasn't seen her beloved for a hundred years and was convinced she had lost her for good, because Isobel - *checks notes* - actually ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ died.
Aylin doesn't know Isobel lives once again until after she told Shadowheart all will be revealed in due time.

Shadowheart does get her answers. Having to wait a single night to let the lunar lesbians catch up with each other isn't that much to ask.

I am also willing to excuse her rudeness because a hundred years of isolation only interrupted by occasional ritualistic murder isn't helpful in maintaining social skills.

At this point of the play he forgot first rudeness of most BG3 companions.

Alyn is daughter of a god, that's also a part of her rudeness, she just can't die if I remember well, sell her is put her back to an eternal jail.

So either he doesn't understood much of story, either he applies no ethics when playing.

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

If you kill people you believe they lack show a respect high enough to you, that's hardly any ethic.

You seem put a lot too much value to respect, there's a social behavior of politeness to not show disrespect by default, but past keep job or friend or what you want, nothing require show respect.

An ethic is a guiding value, a guide to doing good. Respect is as good a guiding ethic as any. You could choose well by picking another. I chose mine.

BG3 gives us a setting where the Sword Coast has gone to hell and back in both senses. We arrive in BG and the government is corrupt, evil cults are everywhere, some in broad daylight. It's up to Tav and co to put things right, without intervention the status quo is bad.

Way I see it, should npcs in the city diss Tav, they're not going to treat others better. One approach to saving the city is to lay down the law, dispensing retribution and justice.

Aylin is a walking catastrophe not even waiting to happen. How are you going to solve her? You give her the 'good' ending is just passing a problem onto others. Larroakan's villainy is tied to her, but he's symptomatic. Killing him doesn't remove her temptation.

[Jarsonne]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Aylin is a walking catastrophe not even waiting to happen. How are you going to solve her? You give her the 'good' ending is just passing a problem onto others. Larroakan's villainy is tied to her, but he's symptomatic. Killing him doesn't remove her temptation.

I disagree on your ethic comment but let skip.

More interesting for me is have more explanation on the comment I quoted, can you explain a bit why?

Why Aylin is a walking catastrophe?
Why Larroakan won't continue chain evil actions? For me and what I understood let him do what he wants is either be a coward, either short term greed for a supposed stronger ally in final battle coming, either evil play.
Why Aylin will chain evil actions or actions with evil results?

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by Tresh:

She hasn't seen her beloved for a hundred years and was convinced she had lost her for good, because Isobel - *checks notes* - actually ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ died.
Aylin doesn't know Isobel lives once again until after she told Shadowheart all will be revealed in due time.

Shadowheart does get her answers. Having to wait a single night to let the lunar lesbians catch up with each other isn't that much to ask.

I am also willing to excuse her rudeness because a hundred years of isolation only interrupted by occasional ritualistic murder isn't helpful in maintaining social skills.

You seem to value the ethics of resilience and deference. Fair enough.

Yeah, I don't buy all her suffering etc. She was coherent enough in shadowrealm and her big reveal takes like 2 seconds. Nah, that big hullabaloo about sex is a big 'Eff you Shadowheart. I'm going to extend your emotional roller coaster ride with my power tripping.'

Well, I noted that and payback was a beach.

[Jarsonne]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Originally posted by Tresh:

She hasn't seen her beloved for a hundred years and was convinced she had lost her for good, because Isobel - *checks notes* - actually ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ died.
Aylin doesn't know Isobel lives once again until after she told Shadowheart all will be revealed in due time.

Shadowheart does get her answers. Having to wait a single night to let the lunar lesbians catch up with each other isn't that much to ask.

I am also willing to excuse her rudeness because a hundred years of isolation only interrupted by occasional ritualistic murder isn't helpful in maintaining social skills.

You seem to value the ethics of resilience and deference. Fair enough.

Yeah, I don't buy all her suffering etc. She was coherent enough in shadowrealm and her big reveal takes like 2 seconds. Nah, that big hullabaloo about sex is a big 'Eff you Shadowheart. I'm going to extend your emotional roller coaster ride with my power tripping.'

Well, I noted that and payback was a beach.

You overeact to Aylin, I don't understand why.

You seem tolerant with Larroakan, I don't understand why.

For Aylin, eventually that he is a daughter of a god and immortal give her a big head and inadapted mortals social behaviors. That's minor.

For Larroakan, it's slavers side, it's Hitler zero empathy side, give him Baldur's Gate and you get a Nazi town.

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

At this point of the play he forgot first rudeness of most BG3 companions.

Alyn is daughter of a god, that's also a part of her rudeness, she just can't die if I remember well, sell her is put her back to an eternal jail.

So either he doesn't understood much of story, either he applies no ethics when playing.

Eh? Gale effuses gratefulness, totally likeminded with Lae'zel, Shart is Shart, and Astarion gets punished and rehabilitated. Minthara was mind-controlled and is later apologetic. Don't care about the rest.

I've got no problem with an insufferable npcs. They should be in the game and often fun characters. But when they gatekeep important content, not cool.

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

Why Aylin is a walking catastrophe?
Why Larroakan won't continue chain evil actions? For me and what I understood let him do what he wants is either be a coward, either short term greed for a supposed stronger ally in final battle coming, either evil play.
Why Aylin will chain evil actions or actions with evil results?

Dude, she gets soul bound up to 3 times during the game. Always by evil wizards. She's instrumental to Shar's evil and then Absolute's evil. We find correspondence floating around talking about soulbinding her.

The secret is out. There's an immortal daughter who can be soulbound as first step for any of a thousand evil plans.

While on Faerun, she's as dangerous as unleashing those 7000 vampire spawn. Which is not a simple situation.

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

You overeact to Aylin, I don't understand why.

You seem tolerant with Larroakan, I don't understand why.

For Aylin, eventually that he is a daughter of a god and immortal give her a big head and inadapted mortals social behaviors. That's minor.

For Larroakan, it's slavers side, it's Hitler zero empathy side, give him Baldur's Gate and you get a Nazi town.

For Aylin, I also don't appreciate the meta-narrative. She gives off serious DMPC vibes. If you play PnP, you'd know why these characters are hated.

I've never not killed Larroakan. He's a chump. And he's very brief one. Give him lots of upstaging cut scenes and interactions, he'd be disliked.

Btw, I don't even think he's a very ambitious villain. Becoming a preening immortal seems to be his end goal. Gortash would eventually chew him up regardless.

[Tresh]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Originally posted by Tresh:

She hasn't seen her beloved for a hundred years and was convinced she had lost her for good, because Isobel - *checks notes* - actually ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ died.
Aylin doesn't know Isobel lives once again until after she told Shadowheart all will be revealed in due time.

Shadowheart does get her answers. Having to wait a single night to let the lunar lesbians catch up with each other isn't that much to ask.

I am also willing to excuse her rudeness because a hundred years of isolation only interrupted by occasional ritualistic murder isn't helpful in maintaining social skills.

You seem to value the ethics of resilience and deference. Fair enough.

Yeah, I don't buy all her suffering etc. She was coherent enough in shadowrealm and her big reveal takes like 2 seconds. Nah, that big hullabaloo about sex is a big 'Eff you Shadowheart. I'm going to extend your emotional roller coaster ride with my power tripping.'

Well, I noted that and payback was a beach.

You act like Shadowheart is the center of Aylin's world at that moment. The mere mention of Isobel distracted her enough for Ketheric to grab and subdue her, so of course, when they actually meet, Aylin is not going to have eyes for anyone else or the mindset to focus on anything else.

Also, even aside from what he plans to do to Aylin, Lorroakan deserves to be turned into a vampire spawn, fed rotten rodents and flayed nightly for the next 200 years just for what he did to Rolan.

[Jarsonne]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

Why Aylin is a walking catastrophe?
Why Larroakan won't continue chain evil actions? For me and what I understood let him do what he wants is either be a coward, either short term greed for a supposed stronger ally in final battle coming, either evil play.
Why Aylin will chain evil actions or actions with evil results?

Dude, she gets soul bound up to 3 times during the game. Always by evil wizards. She's instrumental to Shar's evil and then Absolute's evil. We find correspondence floating around talking about soulbinding her.

The secret is out. There's an immortal daughter who can be soulbound as first step for any of a thousand evil plans.

While on Faerun, she's as dangerous as unleashing those 7000 vampire spawn. Which is not a simple situation.

Except your solution is just create a new soulbinding admitting it's no end of world.

You contradict yourself.

[Jarsonne]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

You overeact to Aylin, I don't understand why.

You seem tolerant with Larroakan, I don't understand why.

For Aylin, eventually that he is a daughter of a god and immortal give her a big head and inadapted mortals social behaviors. That's minor.

For Larroakan, it's slavers side, it's Hitler zero empathy side, give him Baldur's Gate and you get a Nazi town.

For Aylin, I also don't appreciate the meta-narrative. She gives off serious DMPC vibes. If you play PnP, you'd know why these characters are hated.

I've never not killed Larroakan. He's a chump. And he's very brief one. Give him lots of upstaging cut scenes and interactions, he'd be disliked.

Btw, I don't even think he's a very ambitious villain. Becoming a preening immortal seems to be his end goal. Gortash would eventually chew him up regardless.

Perhaps I miss read, I read a typical pure evil greedy wizard that lost any Empathy and sense of life value (death/slavery).

[Jarsonne]

To be clear those ethic debate are a side note, I can admit OP question is leading to a pure greed answer not related to any choice ethic, it's 100% standard in game forums.

[brendan_in_china]

Originally posted by Jarsonne:

Except your solution is just create a new soulbinding admitting it's no end of world.

You contradict yourself.

Eh? I always kill Larroakan. He's one of the easiest Act 3 bosses.

What surprises me is that if L is dead, Rolan tries to Soul bind...

See! Everyone and their monkey are in on the act.