How did the last light inn fight ever make it into the game?

[DodgeThatAttack]

As soon as you get to the inn, the game is constantly telling you to go upstairs, but the moment you talk to isobel you get ambushed by some guy youve never seen before - on the upstairs balcony of a building in the middle of a town. there is absolutely no way to see this fight coming.

you can destroy markus literally turn one, yet isobel still gets knocked out before half your party even gets to act - and even if you do act, the town does crap all to help, and isobel does her absolute best to die because of her stupid AI. she is supposed to be this secret weapon, why is she so damn bad?

and somehow, despite the 4 people on our party surrounding her, and an entire town to get through, some gargoyle just strolls out while carrying isobel???

its a seriously stupid way to railroad such a huge loss.

on top of all this, for whatever reason half of my abilities literally do not work. I'm playing a protection paladin, and yet my reaction designed for this EXACT purpose just doesnt go off.
and its not uncommon that people lose this fight before they have even had a turn. and you can say "just take alert" but that seems like an unrealistic expectation for a fight you can barely predict, and such an important fight requiring alert is just bad design, because that gives you feat choices ONLY for the purpose of you possibly choosing wrong and getting punished for it. i shouldnt have to explain how thats un-fun.

and the punishment for losing a fight you didnt know would happen and had literally no say in?

Your weakened party now has to kill the same townspeople who just did diddly squat to help you - except now in an inexplicably stronger state. That makes TWO consecutive unavoidable and unpredictable battles.
It almost feels designed to be a middle finger to the player specifically.

• all of your act one progress towards saving the Tieflings? erased.
  
• all the new questlines you just gained from talking to everyone at the inn (if you even had the chance to do that)? cancelled.
  
• vendors? gone.

And all of this, including a very possible party wipe, because you either didnt have spell slots, didnt have high dex, had a bad initiative roll, missed an attck roll, got paralysed or just because isobel decided to kill herself.
The only real way to avoid all of this is to already know its going to happen and to barricade the room, and if the game feels like it, that wont even be enough.

Even if I personally beat this fight - even if this fight was EASY, that doesnt really fix the problems with it, but at least that would make it more forgivable, and make the punishment feel like a result of YOUR actions, and not just a messed up joke the hypothetical DM forced upon you.

EDIT: if youre thinking of suggesting some specific way to metagame this, please remember that im already dont with this fight.
I never said that there was NO solution, so please dont suggest one as if that retroactively removes any of these criticisms.

[DodgeThatAttack]

Originally posted by Brian_the_Brute:

It is a surprise attack, works that way even if you know it's coming. There aren't enough difficult encounters in the game, this is an easy fight but takes some quick thinking to save the damsel in distress.

Things that help are casting sanctuary or hold person on her to keep her safe.

If you are out of spells, just throw healing potions on her and always keep a couple of your party around her to shield her from the winged horrors. You should take out Marcus first of course.

thats exactly what we would have done if we had an option. not that she wouldnt immediately waste sanctuary anyway

[DodgeThatAttack]

Originally posted by 1337_h4x0r_xXx_deathlord666_xXx:

Always take the Alert feat as soon as you can...
It's pretty much a guaranteed "you go first, no matter what" in this game, as initiative is only rolled with a d4. And you can't be surprised at all...

being forced to take a specific feat for story reasons is really dumb design

[JaPhiSo]

If we at least had the chance to shoot down the enemy taking her, it would feel much more fair. But since it is lost as soon as she goes down, winning this fight is completely random.

[Soteria]

Originally posted by Draknalor:

I never lost this fight not even on my very first playthrough when i really had no idea bout any thing.

How do you even manage to lose?

It's actually pretty easy with bad luck. We had one of the gargoyles come in with super high initiative and paralyze her. She was dead before one of our party members even had a turn--thanks, auto-crits.

[Kappa]

Originally posted by Soteria:

Originally posted by Draknalor:

I never lost this fight not even on my very first playthrough when i really had no idea bout any thing.

How do you even manage to lose?

It's actually pretty easy with bad luck. We had one of the gargoyles come in with super high initiative and paralyze her. She was dead before one of our party members even had a turn--thanks, auto-crits.

Exactly.

Spin the wheel and It's all about RNG on initiative, attacks and saves ( and the safest way to deal with it is to have high initiative, if the players want to save her ).

[alanc9]

Originally posted by Draknalor:

I never lost this fight not even on my very first playthrough when i really had no idea bout any thing.

How do you even manage to lose?

I lost it once. Marcus rolled well, and we didn't, and the Horrors had better positioning than they usually do. Killed Marcus right after he knocked Isobel out, but if any Horror touches her after that it's over, and there was no way to kill or CC all the Horrors before that happened.

[eRe4s3r]

Originally posted by Soteria:

Originally posted by Draknalor:

I never lost this fight not even on my very first playthrough when i really had no idea bout any thing.

How do you even manage to lose?

It's actually pretty easy with bad luck. We had one of the gargoyles come in with super high initiative and paralyze her. She was dead before one of our party members even had a turn--thanks, auto-crits.

Happened to me on my first playthrough - 1st turn, 2 gargoyles swarm in, 3 crits, 1 paralyze, marcus moves, hits her hard, fight over, tentacles everywhere. If you know it's coming you can prepare differently and never lost it since then, but still - in further playthroughs I also discovered sanctuary won't save you in this fight if she moves after you. Because the AI is actually dumb as bricks when the goal isn't to DIE GLORIOUSLY.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by DodgeThatAttack:

... and isobel does her absolute best to die because of her stupid AI. she is supposed to be this secret weapon, why is she so damn bad?

She's not actually a high-level cleric; she's just been granted special abilities for the situation. And I'm pretty sure she has almost zero field experience, so I wouldn't expect her to be good

and somehow, despite the 4 people on our party surrounding her, and an entire town to get through, some gargoyle just strolls out of the front door while carrying isobel???

Hmm... when I lost he flew out.

Your weakened party now has to kill the same townspeople who just did diddly squat to help you - except now in an inexplicably stronger state. That makes TWO consecutive unavoidable and unpredictable battles.
It almost feels designed to be a middle finger to the player specifically.

• all of your act one progress towards saving the Tieflings? erased.
  
• all the new questlines you just gained from talking to everyone at the inn (if you even had the chance to do that)? cancelled.
  
• vendors? gone.

I thought having real consequences for failure was kind of awesome, myself. The only time I lost this fight I played it out.

Add another few consequences to that list.

Since the Shadow Curse can never be lifted, Halsin never joins.

Depending on how the second phase of the fight goes, you can lose access to two more companions.

If you didn't talk to people downstairs, you lose access to some Act 3 content.

Also, note that some of the tieflings aren't at the Inn, so you don't lose absolutely everyone you saved in Act 1.

[alanc9]

Originally posted by eRe4s3r:

Originally posted by Soteria:

It's actually pretty easy with bad luck. We had one of the gargoyles come in with super high initiative and paralyze her. She was dead before one of our party members even had a turn--thanks, auto-crits.

Happened to me on my first playthrough - 1st turn, 2 gargoyles swarm in, 3 crits, 1 paralyze, marcus moves, hits her hard, fight over, tentacles everywhere. If you know it's coming you can prepare differently and never lost it since then, but still - in further playthroughs I also discovered sanctuary won't save you in this fight if she moves after you. Because the AI is actually dumb as bricks when the goal isn't to DIE GLORIOUSLY.

Wouldn't Greater Invisibility be the spell of choice there?

[Soteria]

Originally posted by alanc9:

Originally posted by eRe4s3r:

Happened to me on my first playthrough - 1st turn, 2 gargoyles swarm in, 3 crits, 1 paralyze, marcus moves, hits her hard, fight over, tentacles everywhere. If you know it's coming you can prepare differently and never lost it since then, but still - in further playthroughs I also discovered sanctuary won't save you in this fight if she moves after you. Because the AI is actually dumb as bricks when the goal isn't to DIE GLORIOUSLY.

Wouldn't Greater Invisibility be the spell of choice there?

For me, Gale never made it out of the portal. We just let things go however the dice rolled. It's also not a given that you'd have him with you, of course--plenty of other interesting companions.

Well, a lot fewer interesting companions now, since my charisma-penalized dwarf failed his charisma check so Laezel is dead. And Jaheira died in the fighting when the inn fell. It does make it a little easier to choose who to take with you.

I'm not complaining really, I think the game has gone in an interesting direction, but I think a lot of the "skill issue" people are actually just ignorant of how quickly and easily the cleric can go down.

[Heu, Iterum Id Feci]

Originally posted by Soteria:

Originally posted by alanc9:

Wouldn't Greater Invisibility be the spell of choice there?

For me, Gale never made it out of the portal. We just let things go however the dice rolled. It's also not a given that you'd have him with you, of course--plenty of other interesting companions.

Well, a lot fewer interesting companions now, since my charisma-penalized dwarf failed his charisma check so Laezel is dead. And Jaheira died in the fighting when the inn fell. It does make it a little easier to choose who to take with you.

I'm not complaining really, I think the game has gone in an interesting direction, but I think a lot of the "skill issue" people are actually just ignorant of how quickly and easily the cleric can go down.

You can always eiher respecc or get a hireling, if you need for example a wizard or sorc for blasting...
Also....if you depend on clerics for healing you got a problem....there is no real gealing in D&D and there are much better things you can do with your cleric...
I barely ever prepare healing word/cure wounds with my clerics...:P

[Estevan Valladares]

A nice quote: "You can roleplay a stupid character, but you should not expect to be rewarded for it".

First of all, in most RPGs, specially in DnD, if you are told to do something repeatedly, you should think very well and hard about doing it.

Then there is the problem with RPG playing: You might see people doing something almost every time, and some stuff might be popular, but it is dumb.

And there is this:
https://youtu.be/QZMSC0FuQOw

The ideal way that the Inn arc goes in negative or positive way does not hinge on how the fight goes, but if you will fight it, the Ex Machina NPCs will take care of everything, you just need to focus on keeping Isobel from being taken, which is easy. But for other arcs you might be interested, it should not be impossible.

And dont forget, you should be able to also kill her yourself.

So a lot of judgement is important.

[hornsounder97]

Either a game is too easy, or too difficult. Save often, and keep at it. That's half the fun.

[DeMasked]

BG3 does this a few times in the game where it's emphasised the importance of doing x, y, or z.

The Githyanki patrol is one of these things and the Last Light Inn is another. Without taking the time to explore, level up, get better items, and resting / long resting you find yourself at a disadvantage and having to load an earlier save - which is why one shouldn't play Honour Mode on a first try.

This fight was never a surprise for me because the first time I played through the game it was on multiplayer where 1 person already played through the game. My single player Honour Mode run I just blocked the doors with barrels, crates or chests and then most of my team had Alert Feat which is super important for a Hard Core run through of the game. Not being surprised and starting first is too good to ignore.

[Brian_the_Brute]

Since you went last and didn't have time to act you should keep all of these things in mind to make sure that doesn't happen: Alert feat, Bow of awareness, Elixir of Vigilance, Soulbreaker greatsword, Feral Instinct (barbarian), Dread Ambusher (ranger), Yuan-Ti Scale Mail (sold outside LL Inn).

There are even more initiative boosting items later, at least a couple at moonrise which possibly could be picked up first if you followed the escort instead of going to LL first.

Alert is pretty much mandatory in honor mode and should be the first feat for most everyone.