Killing Ansur is just... Sad (major spoilers)

[Jaeleth]

Not only taking me more time to "solve" than the usual boss fights (4 tries, I guess not always one comes up with the correct strategy from scratch). There was something else with this fight...

I wish I didn't have to kill him (when talking to him). I wish Balduran never killed him before, I wish Balduran had gone the "noble way"... I wish Balduran never turned out to be an Illithid... The whole Balduran lore in BG3 is very sad, nihilist even, Ansur 's tale just adds another level of despair to the whole story.

Since BG2, Balduran was always pegged to somewhat of a grim fate, remember werewolves island? It was but an hint but, we all assumed it was his ship moored there and what was left of him was the "Loup Garou" leader of the pack... But, whatever his fate was, he should've remained dead, not brought back hundreds of years later (as en elf(?)) just to be snatched while looking for treasure deep inside Moonrise and became that... Squiddy thing... We all loathe.

Balduran's a sad tale indeed.

[seeker1]

Emperor-Duran says he had to kill Ansur in self defense.

Personally, I think this is just one of many things Douche-Duran is lying about. Like, "well, I ate brains, but only those of criminals" (without specifying which kind). Or, "Duke Stellmane and I had a mutually beneficial relationship".

Again, I think even if Douche-Duran is telling the truth (which requires a Larian retcon, see what Ed G. said about it), ... he is Balduran no longer, just a soulless thing that still has Balduran's memories, but none of his qualities.

And again, the irony is, IF telling the truth, when he sides with the Netherbrain, he's actively working to destroy the city he once founded. I figure no point in telling the city's leaders to take down all the statues honoring him. Sort of like Batman not telling people how Harvey Dent, the former champion of the people, wound up a monster instead. Let them remember him how he was, not the thing he became.

[Orion Invictus]

The Emperor is not Balduran. It might claim to be Balduran, it might even BELIEVE it's Balduran, but it's clear it's not Balduran. This is just another piece of evidence.

[Boombastic]

I feel you! I also felt like "why?" Ok, survivance but "not noble".

I was also having these thoughts about Balduran/the Emperor but I do understand the BG3 "plot" and the urge because well, eating brains is how you survive as mind-flayer so what can you do?

Sad story indeed. Also, Ansur could have been a great asset

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

The Emperor is not Balduran. It might claim to be Balduran, it might even BELIEVE it's Balduran, but it's clear it's not Balduran. This is just another piece of evidence.

He could be telling the entire unvarnished truth and he still wouldn't be Balduran. Outside of possibly what can happen to the PC, Karlach orOrpheaus at the end a Mind Flayer is not the previous occupant of it's body, they are a new creature that (sometimes) has the memories of the person killed to create it.
The Emperor probably was created from Balduran's body but that doesn't make him Balduran any more than one of the skeletons raised by Kethric are the people whose bones he's using.

[arikel.pv]

Well, even MC as the illithid in the epilogue doesn't claim firmly it is he/she the one who accompanied all others. It just have some feeling towards them, not necessary friendly (it might out of sudden want to taste their brains).
But there's another major question. We've been told all the game that turning into an illithid is permanent. But then we see in the flashback cutscene Balduran as a human (being infected), then Balduran as an illithid already (subdued by the elderbrain but being snatched away by Ansur), and then... Balduran as a human again rejecting Ansur's help and turning - this time into the Emperor as we've got used to see him. Logic lacunes, that.

[emreyigit1967]

I think canon has changed a bit regarding illithid souls - at least within the game. One possibility might be unique enough to excite you-know-who, but it's more than that, I think we may be going down the suppression route rather than oblivion. And I rather like Omeluum, who's more Vulcan than mindflayer.

I for one believe that the Emperor is Balduran is the Emperor, one of whose characteristics seem to have been an amalgam of all the ambition displayed by player and origin characters.
A fusion, if you will, of tadpole and previous form.

There but for the grace of God go we. 😉

[emreyigit1967]

Originally posted by arikel.pv:

Well, even MC as the illithid in the epilogue doesn't claim firmly it is he/she the one who accompanied all others. It just have some feeling towards them, not necessary friendly (it might out of sudden want to taste their brains).
But there's another major question. We've been told all the game that turning into an illithid is permanent. But then we see in the flashback cutscene Balduran as a human (being infected), then Balduran as an illithid already (subdued by the elderbrain but being snatched away by Ansur), and then... Balduran as a human again rejecting Ansur's help and turning - this time into the Emperor as we've got used to see him. Logic lacunes, that.

Well, I could kill children in Act 1. The fact that I didn't doesn't make me a murderer.

Regarding the Emperor and Ansur scene, I played through that just yesterday. I don't know whether it's new or it was always so, but there is an illithid lying down behind them. So maybe the human form was just a projection?

[Inardesco]

Originally posted by emreyigit1967:

I think canon has changed a bit regarding illithid souls - at least within the game. One possibility might be unique enough to excite you-know-who, but it's more than that, I think we may be going down the suppression route rather than oblivion. And I rather like Omeluum, who's more Vulcan than mindflayer.

I for one believe that the Emperor is Balduran is the Emperor, one of whose characteristics seem to have been an amalgam of all the ambition displayed by player and origin characters.
A fusion, if you will, of tadpole and previous form.

There but for the grace of God go we. 😉

Whithers says that Ilithids don't have souls and therefore can't the person they were before turning.

[emreyigit1967]

Originally posted by Inardesco:

Whithers says that Ilithids don't have souls and therefore can't the person they were before turning.

Spoiler tag, just in case.

But later can contradict himself ("This one I know") just before the final battle, at the meet-up in the Upper City. And is thrilled out of his usual ennui when the Durge is dead and his soul is a-wandering.

[seeker1]

Omeluum appears to be a mutant. We don't know the reasons for his mutation. He's just different "somehow".
The endgame Karlach-Tav-flayer (Orpheus-flayer doesn't appear in the epilogue, even if not killed) SEEMS to still have some of the original emotions and qualities of the previous being, but might be another kind of exception.

Emperor is the standard mindflayer. There's nothing left of the original being. Balduran's soul and qualities are gone. It enjoyed some autonomy due to Orpheus and the Astral Prism and wants to hold on to that autonomy, but is otherwise not different from its kind.

[emreyigit1967]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Omeluum appears to be a mutant. We don't know the reasons for his mutation. He's just different "somehow".

So he may have been right when he asked "Is my species evolving?" though that's probably not what he was thinking about. Food for thought. 😊

[Pyromaiden]

Balduran's dead, he's locked in my basement.

[emreyigit1967]

Jokig about the dubious contents of your cellar aside, all we know of Balduran's fate is that he appears to have died and is at the bottom of the sea. For all we know, in Baldur's Gate VI, he will re-appear as the scheming consort of Umberlee.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Omeluum appears to be a mutant. We don't know the reasons for his mutation. He's just different "somehow".
The endgame Karlach-Tav-flayer (Orpheus-flayer doesn't appear in the epilogue, even if not killed) SEEMS to still have some of the original emotions and qualities of the previous being, but might be another kind of exception.

Emperor is the standard mindflayer. There's nothing left of the original being. Balduran's soul and qualities are gone. It enjoyed some autonomy due to Orpheus and the Astral Prism and wants to hold on to that autonomy, but is otherwise not different from its kind.

Omelumm is a sorcerer, which is sometimes the logical result of magic ancestry but also just kinda happens sometimes due to magic being random and strange. That's what freed it from the Elder Brain of its city's control. It didn't make it any nicer, he did that himself by pure observation.
"Most species that have done well seem to have a morality of some sort, I should look into that." "Okay, they behave in this fashion. I will do likewise and see if it works for me." "It does. Good, I'll keep doing that."
It's pretty fascinating as a concept.

[Mojo]

Spoiler kinda? Just in case I added the tag. :)
If you let Karlach become Ilithid, in the epilogue she still seems to be Karlach. Or maybe it was just me hoping she was "really" still in there. :)