Why save Minthara?

[Karina]

When doing a goold playthrough you can knock her out with non lethal damage and she will show up later and still can be recruited. But im struggling to come up with in-character justification of leaving that particular npc alive while you goin around and killing everything else inside the goblin camp. Feels like metagaming.

If Larian wanted for this character to be avalible in good playthrough they should have come up with more robust reason why she still alive. Like she escapes at the last moment, of fakes her death or something.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by Esteban Failsmore:

Why save Minthara?
When doing a goold playthrough you can knock her out with non lethal damage and she will show up later and still can be recruited. But im struggling to come up with in-character justification of leaving that particular npc alive while you goin around and killing everything else inside the goblin camp. Feels like metagaming.

If Larian wanted for this character to be avalible in good playthrough they should have come up with more robust reason why she still alive. Like she escapes at the last moment, of fakes her death or something.

It is "metagaming".
Do not look for another explaination as she was never intended to be an option within a good playthrough.

[Dr. Sinclair]

You could pretend you *thought* you killed her

and no, they didnt want her for good playtroughs. its that people kept finding loopholes and exploits to get her on a good playtrough, so they just gave in and let people do it.

[Lani]

There really isn't any and Larian didn't really intend for her to be recruited in a 'good' play-through either.
They shoehorned it in after lots of people thirsting after her outside of lore were bending over backwards to recruit her. So they made it a bit more doable technically but there aren't any in-game reasons for non-evil characters to take that route.

[Karina]

Right, thanks for clarifying.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Esteban Failsmore:

When doing a goold playthrough you can knock her out with non lethal damage and she will show up later and still can be recruited. But im struggling to come up with in-character justification of leaving that particular npc alive while you goin around and killing everything else inside the goblin camp. Feels like metagaming.

If Larian wanted for this character to be avalible in good playthrough they should have come up with more robust reason why she still alive. Like she escapes at the last moment, of fakes her death or something.

Well. I can give you one, but the vocal crowd here won't like it. Basically, as the story goes - you play a good character, say - a paladin - and he sees that villainess who happens to be pretty and sexy. He hates that he has to kill her and so decides that maybe one time he'll make an exception and KO her. After all, if he kills all other villains - then that girl won't be a threat to the Grove all by herself (hint: if you don't think Minthara's "pretty" - that's okay, there are mods to remedy that thing + after all, it's the matter of MC, not the player, albeit I can understand how one's thoughts always define the actions of the other)

That way Minthara gets away with her life by the virtue of being pretty. In-lore her beauty wouldn't be that much of a stretch because she's a drow and those are supposed to possess incredible physical beauty. It's written in the lore[forgottenrealms.fandom.com] - it's just the modern vibes that prevent creating attractive females in general and which force devs to make even drow an "average" in looks at best. But if you roll with the lore, then Minthara would be a rare sight, literally (because drow on the surface are supposed to be incredibly rare) and figuratively (because as I mentioned, her physical beauty should be a sight to behold). Your MC didn't plan for what happens after, he just let her live - and then the rest was down to the plot.

[Karina]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Esteban Failsmore:

When doing a goold playthrough you can knock her out with non lethal damage and she will show up later and still can be recruited. But im struggling to come up with in-character justification of leaving that particular npc alive while you goin around and killing everything else inside the goblin camp. Feels like metagaming.

If Larian wanted for this character to be avalible in good playthrough they should have come up with more robust reason why she still alive. Like she escapes at the last moment, of fakes her death or something.

Well. I can give you one, but the vocal crowd here won't like it. Basically, as the story goes - you play a good character, say - a paladin - and he sees that villainess who happens to be pretty and sexy. He hates that he has to kill her and so decides that maybe one time he'll make an exception and KO her. After all, if he kills all other villains - then that girl won't be a threat to the Grove all by herself (hint: if you don't think Minthara's "pretty" - that's okay, there are mods to remedy that thing + after all, it's the matter of MC, not the player, albeit I can understand how one's thoughts always define the actions of the other)

That way Minthara gets away with her life by the virtue of being pretty. In-lore her beauty wouldn't be that much of a stretch because she's a drow and those are supposed to possess incredible physical beauty. It's written in the lore[forgottenrealms.fandom.com] - it's just the modern vibes that prevent creating attractive females in general which force make even drow an "average" at best. But if you roll with the lore, then Minthara would be a rare sight, literally (because drow on the surface are supposed to be incredibly rare) and figuratively (because as I mentioned, her physical beauty should be a sight to behold). Your MC didn't plan for what happens after, he just let her live - and then the rest was down to the plot.

Sorry, but i stopped reading after "sexy villainess" part lol.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Esteban Failsmore:

Sorry, but i stopped reading after "sexy villainess" part lol.

You don't have to be sorry. But it looks like have to. For wasting my time here.

[ZZZZZ]

isnt that normal in games? u kill all that for exp & loot and only keep those alive who have a use at a later point

[seeker1]

So ... here's the interesting question. I agree Larian never meant for her to be recruited by "good" players and definitely meant, initially, for it to be impossible for her to be recruited along with Halsin at the same time. They SAID so. They were MEANT to be mutually exclusive. But Patch 5 introduced a deliberate change. They literally changed the coding of the game to now allow you to have both. Yes, it revolved around legitimating an exploit, but it was a conscious choice on their part.

So yes - I agree - you HAVE to have metagaming knowledge to even know this could possibly work. "KO her and you'll be able to recruit her later". NOTHING in the game cues into this - you have to know it from reading it elsewhere. Although, BTW, "elsewhere" includes the Patch Notes, which many players are reading anyway .... however, you can't go by the info there, you need (for most people who don't know already from reading these forums etc.) that it requires a guide. Because, in fact, if you don't "KO" her "right" you still can't recruit her later. "Temp hostile is key".

But let's assume for argument's sake the in-world explanation is ... I don't know ... your Tav has a hunch. "Maybe there's something different about this one." Now, BTW, what can only clue you into this afterward is the fact that her dead or unconscious body has a camp supply sack in their inventory. Even if you read nothing else, this might already start to make a player wonder about something - as only potential companions would have such a thing. So by a 2nd playthrough you have this knowledge. Still "meta" in a sense, but ...

Let's get to the key question. Does she make sense in a "good" party? Well, IF she had an alignment I kinda think it would be neutral evil. BTW, I think that's typical of Drow. But you might already have an evil companion with you - Astarion also acts pretty evil (see another thread on this very topic). Githyanki default alignment is Lawful Evil, although I'm kinda uncertain on Laez. but she might be another. Also, at least at first, Shadowheart seems ... kinda? ... evil ... Shar IS an evil deity ... but ... as always to say more on this is spoilers.

My point is by the time you are running into Minthara, you've got potentially plenty of "evil" with you already. Why draw the line at her? And so here comes the crux of the question. Why would a good player recruit an evil person who had previously been working for the Absolute? I would argue once again a possible in-universe explanation of an intuitive hunch. "Maybe there's something different about this one."

So ... start talking to her and you'll find out the Absolute was brainwashing her, and forcing her to do many of these things she now regrets. She in fact now wants revenge primarily on Orin, who tadpoled her, the murderhobo b*tch. Now I'm not saying she turns "good" after this. She doesn't. But you understand her past actions by this explanation, and I would argue for how approval functions with her and her general attitude, that comes from the culture she was raised in.

Yes, this is all stuff you can only learn post facto; so perhaps the only in-universe explanation is "I had a hunch about her". The weird thing is - note - both of you have tadpoles. Maybe, although the game never explicitly provides this info in an explicit way as it does when you meet other tadpoled beings - when you first met her, you might have gotten some telepathic insight into how she might be different.

TLDR: she is NOT "cartoon evil" and in fact could make sense in a "good" party. And even, yes, possibly being romanced by a good character - once they know and understand her backstory. As after all, good characters could romance evil Viconia in BG2.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by seeker1:

So ... here's the interesting question. I agree Larian never meant for her to be recruited by "good" players and definitely meant, initially, for it to be impossible for her to be recruited along with Halsin at the same time. They SAID so. They were MEANT to be mutually exclusive. But Patch 5 introduced a deliberate change. They literally changed the coding of the game to now allow you to have both. Yes, it revolved around legitimating an exploit, but it was a conscious choice on their part.

So yes - I agree - you HAVE to have metagaming knowledge to even know this could possibly work. "KO her and you'll be able to recruit her later". NOTHING in the game cues into this - you have to know it from reading it elsewhere. Although, BTW, "elsewhere" includes the Patch Notes, which many players are reading anyway .... however, you can't go by the info there, you need (for most people who don't know already from reading these forums etc.) that it requires a guide. Because, in fact, if you don't "KO" her "right" you still can't recruit her later. "Temp hostile is key".

But let's assume for argument's sake the in-world explanation is ... I don't know ... your Tav has a hunch. "Maybe there's something different about this one." Now, BTW, what can only clue you into this afterward is the fact that her dead or unconscious body has a camp supply sack in their inventory. Even if you read nothing else, this might already start to make a player wonder about something - as only potential companions would have such a thing. So by a 2nd playthrough you have this knowledge. Still "meta" in a sense, but ...

Let's get to the key question. Does she make sense in a "good" party? Well, IF she had an alignment I kinda think it would be neutral evil. BTW, I think that's typical of Drow. But you might already have an evil companion with you - Astarion also acts pretty evil (see another thread on this very topic). Githyanki default alignment is Lawful Evil, although I'm kinda uncertain on Laez. but she might be another. Also, at least at first, Shadowheart seems ... kinda? ... evil ... Shar IS an evil deity ... but ... as always to say more on this is spoilers.

My point is by the time you are running into Minthara, you've got potentially plenty of "evil" with you already. Why draw the line at her? And so here comes the crux of the question. Why would a good player recruit an evil person who had previously been working for the Absolute? I would argue once again a possible in-universe explanation of an intuitive hunch. "Maybe there's something different about this one."

So ... start talking to her and you'll find out the Absolute was brainwashing her, and forcing her to do many of these things she now regrets. She in fact now wants revenge primarily on Orin, who tadpoled her, the murderhobo b*tch. Now I'm not saying she turns "good" after this. She doesn't. But you understand her past actions by this explanation, and I would argue for how approval functions with her and her general attitude, that comes from the culture she was raised in.

TLDR: she is NOT "cartoon evil" and in fact could make sense in a "good" party. And even, yes, possibly being romanced by a good character - once they know and understand her backstory. As after all, good characters could romance evil Viconia in BG2.

I can only agree there.

[Toaster Maximus]

To get your nerd on with meta gaming no real reason she is evil to the core.

[Ceredh]

You can save her because you a) want to interview (by torture perhaps?) a seemingly leading villain to get better information about the Absolute. So a kind of secret service reason. Not that unlogical.

You can b) save her because you find her hot and don't want to kill her because of romantic or not-so-romantic feelings. A reason quite often seen in real life history too. There is also a hidden fascination that some people take from villains. You know, several people love (especially: famous) murderers who are in prison, acting like fans of music stars.

[KRON]

It is meta gaming. She's not supposed to be recruitable if you side with the tieflings. That option was added due to popular demand and seeing that there was already an exploit to recruit her if you sided with the tieflings. The devs just decided to make it easier.

There's no actual story reason to leave her alive if you decide to destroy the goblins.

[seeker1]

Again, I will disagree. The story reason makes sense based on talking to her after recruiting her. But then the question becomes, since you only know this after talking to her, how could you know it beforehand without "meta" knowledge.

Well, I add to my "intuitive hunch" theory that both of you have tadpoles, and tadpoles normally give you telepathic insight into another person's mind. Granted, there is no explicit dialogue moment in the game where this happens. But it certainly COULD have happened and could be headcanon'd.

I agree your initial conversation options with her "don't go there" - but a tadpole connection could certainly get you to sense she is being brainwashed and mind controlled by the Absolute and being forced to do all this.

[choddo]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Esteban Failsmore:

When doing a goold playthrough you can knock her out with non lethal damage and she will show up later and still can be recruited. But im struggling to come up with in-character justification of leaving that particular npc alive while you goin around and killing everything else inside the goblin camp. Feels like metagaming.

If Larian wanted for this character to be avalible in good playthrough they should have come up with more robust reason why she still alive. Like she escapes at the last moment, of fakes her death or something.

Well. I can give you one, but the vocal crowd here won't like it. Basically, as the story goes - you play a good character, say - a paladin - and he sees that villainess who happens to be pretty and sexy. He hates that he has to kill her and so decides that maybe one time he'll make an exception and KO her. After all, if he kills all other villains - then that girl won't be a threat to the Grove all by herself (hint: if you don't think Minthara's "pretty" - that's okay, there are mods to remedy that thing + after all, it's the matter of MC, not the player, albeit I can understand how one's thoughts always define the actions of the other)

That way Minthara gets away with her life by the virtue of being pretty. In-lore her beauty wouldn't be that much of a stretch because she's a drow and those are supposed to possess incredible physical beauty. It's written in the lore[forgottenrealms.fandom.com] - it's just the modern vibes that prevent creating attractive females in general and which force devs to make even drow an "average" in looks at best. But if you roll with the lore, then Minthara would be a rare sight, literally (because drow on the surface are supposed to be incredibly rare) and figuratively (because as I mentioned, her physical beauty should be a sight to behold). Your MC didn't plan for what happens after, he just let her live - and then the rest was down to the plot.

This is entirely reasonable. I feel bad killing attractive characters. It's written into my psyche. I immediately selected the "hot dang lady!" option without a moment's cognitive processing when Mizora showed up and basically just did whatever she told me like some kind of puppy. I would defo have kicked Laezel out of a campbed for either of them, mortal soul foregone or not.