Does Darkmoon Heresy exist in BG3 times?

[Kamuizin]

Was just pondering on this, would be interesting to make Shadowheart a darkmoon heretic.

[Millstone85]

The stuff Aylin says when she reverses the polarity of the spear would certainly push Shadowheart in that direction.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Doubt it, it was a very unstable belief system being used by a Sharran to manipulate folks.

[seeker1]

And here I thought that "heresy" was started by people trying to bring the WoW-based Darkmoon Faire into Faerun.

[Alien]

The thing is that it was both a heresy with a proper organized cult (under the Twofold Temple), and a theological idea.
The first one disappeared and we have no trace of remaining cults with that belief, however there could be individuals who at any time start thinking it is true. It doesn't require hidden knowledge, and in fact it's such a trivial "observation" that it was made up to start a scam. There are way whackier "heresies" in the Forgotten Realms.

The real issue is whether the modern rules allow for a cleric to draw powers from two deities at once. Ultimately it's up to the DM of course, but in the rules it can be a bit problematic. Technically, a cleric can worship as many deities as they want (up to an entire pantheon) but only one patron deity is allowed. From the point of view of a cleric of the Darkmoon, there would only be one deity with probably the domains of both gods available. But they can't have two domains at once (that would be two subclasses of the same class, which isn't allowed).

Maybe one way to make Shadowheart a Darkmoon heretic mechanically would be to combine a Light Cleric with a Vengeance paladin, or a Trickery Cleric with a Devotion Paladin, or something like that.

Roleplay-wise, most DMs would likely allow you to play a Darkmoon heretic (it's always fun an interesting to add this kind of opportunities), but in BG3 it's a bit hard to do. Shadowhearts either embraces or rejects Shar. Maybe if the player forces her hand it could make sense?

[DeportedFetus]

I took Aldrich Faithful covenant instead as he's is the saint who crawled from the acathedral of the Deep and devoured a god.

[Millstone85]

Origineel geplaatst door Alien:

The real issue is whether the modern rules allow for a cleric to draw powers from two deities at once. Ultimately it's up to the DM of course, but in the rules it can be a bit problematic. Technically, a cleric can worship as many deities as they want (up to an entire pantheon) but only one patron deity is allowed. From the point of view of a cleric of the Darkmoon, there would only be one deity with probably the domains of both gods available. But they can't have two domains at once (that would be two subclasses of the same class, which isn't allowed).

By the 5e Player's Handbook, even the worship of a single deity typically lets a cleric choose among multiple domains. The first example given is how the god Apollo can be worshipped by the epithet of Phoebus ("radiant") or Acesius ("healing"), thus justifying a cleric of either the Light domain or Life domain.

Conversely, I wouldn't see the choice of a domain as indicative that a pantheon cleric is ultimately empowered by a single deity.

[Kamuizin]

This is on me and just my interpretation of the deities.

I have the feeling the gods are just a persona facet a portfolio, the changeable consciousness side of aspects of the world.

The consciousness, Shar and Selune, may dislike the heresy, but the aspect, twilight, attune to anyone that link themselves to it.

[Millstone85]

Origineel geplaatst door Kamuizin:

I have the feeling the gods are just a persona facet a portfolio, the changeable consciousness side of aspects of the world.

They are certainly very changeable and hazy.

To give a couple examples beside Selûne/Shar:

 
• There is a lot of back and forth on whether Mystryl, Mystra and Midnight are (1) distinct goddesses who each in turn took custody of the Weave or (2) successive incarnations of the goddess of magic.
   
• Amaunator, god of the sun, and Lathander, god of the metaphorical "dawn", merged into a single deity after the Spellplague but went back to being separate entities after the Sundering.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Origineel geplaatst door Kamuizin:

This is on me and just my interpretation of the deities.

I have the feeling the gods are just a persona facet a portfolio, the changeable consciousness side of aspects of the world.

The consciousness, Shar and Selune, may dislike the heresy, but the aspect, twilight, attune to anyone that link themselves to it.

That doesn't track.
Mortals can ascend to godhood, taking on a portfolio while already having a separate existence. And even gods created as gods are still separate beings from their portfolios. During the Time of Troubles Waukeen, goddess of trade, attempted to get around Ao's exile of the gods by giving up her portfolio to her friend Tymora, goddess of good luck, then travelling to her godly realm via the Abyss only to be trapped by the demon prince Graz'it. She was away from her portfolio for years but continued to exist.
Further to that the gods can redefine their portfolios more than the other way around. Take Bhaal; he got the broadly morally neutral portfolio of "Death" (as in the actual moment of going from alive to not alive) and twisted it to "Murder" because in such things did his interests lie. At the end of "Throne of Bhaal" a good aligned PC can change the same portfolio into something positive.
This is muddied in the case of Shar and Selune because they were a single entity once but that was aeons ago. Ao split them into light and darkness and, while they retain a link, they have been two separate being ever since. There is no joint aspect that is both of them together.

[Scheneighnay]

I think you can bring it up to her as a Cleric of Selune when you're trying to smash but I don't think it goes any further.

[Kamuizin]

Origineel geplaatst door GriffinPilgrim:

That doesn't track.
Mortals can ascend to godhood, taking on a portfolio while already having a separate existence. And even gods created as gods are still separate beings from their portfolios.

Afaik you just reinforced my argument. … thank you?

[GriffinPilgrim]

Origineel geplaatst door Kamuizin:

Origineel geplaatst door GriffinPilgrim:

That doesn't track.
Mortals can ascend to godhood, taking on a portfolio while already having a separate existence. And even gods created as gods are still separate beings from their portfolios.

Afaik you just reinforced my argument. … thank you?

Um, no? Your position was that the gods only existed as personalities laid over their portfolios and that thus Selune and Shar were just different faces for the same thing, my point was that that isn't the case, gods exist independently of their portfolios which are simply things they possess.

[Kamuizin]

Origineel geplaatst door GriffinPilgrim:

Origineel geplaatst door Kamuizin:

Afaik you just reinforced my argument. … thank you?

Um, no? Your position was that the gods only existed as personalities laid over their portfolios and that thus Selune and Shar were just different faces for the same thing, my point was that that isn't the case, gods exist independently of their portfolios which are simply things they possess.

That wasn’t my point, i said the gods are facets of the archetypes that make the world, they may have their own consciousness and dislike the heresy, but can’t stop anyone who attune to the true essence of the portifolios.

[GriffinPilgrim]

Origineel geplaatst door Kamuizin:

Origineel geplaatst door GriffinPilgrim:

Um, no? Your position was that the gods only existed as personalities laid over their portfolios and that thus Selune and Shar were just different faces for the same thing, my point was that that isn't the case, gods exist independently of their portfolios which are simply things they possess.

That wasn’t my point, i said the gods are facets of the archetypes that make the world, they may have their own consciousness and dislike the heresy, but can’t stop anyone who attune to the true essence of the portifolios.

Except they can. While in some D&D worlds you can be a cleric of a concept you can't in the Forgotten Realms. Anyone using divine magic has to be channelling from a god and the god can revoke it at any time.
Besides which Shar and Selune don't have any portfolio in common. They couldn't; by Ao's decree no two gods in the same pantheon can have the same portfolio.
The reason there were empowered clerics in the Heresy had powers is because Selune was holding out hope for redemption for her wayward followers (and maybe pick up some converted Sharrans at the same time, as indeed can happen) and the whole thing was a Sharran plot to begin with so Shar had no reason to withhold her powers.

[Millstone85]

Origineel geplaatst door Kamuizin:

[The gods] can’t stop anyone who attune to the true essence of the portifolios.

Origineel geplaatst door GriffinPilgrim:

Except they can.

Heck, they probably have to or Ao will again come and tell them they are divinitying wrong.