Is "Raphael" getting the crown really a "bad ending"? It only affects the Hells, not the rest of the forgotten realms

[Frosty Mist]

So why does it really matter or not enough for it to be considered a 'bad ending'? Technically isn't it more of a 'neutral ending'?

Although you might want to get the other endings with the crown which it might lock you out of?

[Big Moustache]

Originally posted by Frosty Mist:

So why does it really matter or not enough for it to be considered a 'bad ending'? Technically isn't it more of a 'neutral ending'?

Although you might want to get the other endings with the crown which it might lock you out of?

Where do you do your dealings with Raphael?

[GriffinPilgrim]

Raphael is a devil, that is to say he's the concepts of tyranny, greed and systemic abuse walking around in a nice suit. And giving him the crown gives him the power of a god. So yeah, pretty bad.

[Frosty Mist]

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

Raphael is a devil, that is to say he's the concepts of tyranny, greed and systemic abuse walking around in a nice suit. And giving him the crown gives him the power of a god. So yeah, pretty bad.

Does it make much difference though on who is 'in-charge' of the nine hells and how it affects things? I mean it seems he promises he will never attack the realms outside of the nine hells right?

Also hard to say whether he actually succeeds, but seems the bad part is getting locked out of other endings when you can do better things with it?

[seeker1]

Well, it depends on how you view the epilogue you see after you give Raphael the Crown.

He tells you, in his usual cheery way,

He will use the power of it to subjugate the Nine Hells, and then when he's done, he will ALSO come knocking to your own plane, the Prime Material Plane.

Maybe it's bombast. Maybe he's not going to be able to do it. But he says that's what's going to happen next.

There aren't many ways I could rationalize that as a 'good' outcome.

BTW, not that anybody ruling the Nine Hells are paragons of 'virtue' ... they are ALL Lawful Evil and have already been waging a massive Blood War with each other ... but him ruling over all the rest ... well that doesn't sound that 'good' to me, either.

[Hellsteeth30]

Asmodeus will see it coming, he'll appreciate the ambition but he'll put a stop to it if Raph becomes a threat.

[Giganx]

It's kind of an "it depends" ending.

Under it's current ruler the hells seem to coexist in a way that allows the world to function. Under a new ruler who knows what'll happen. Is Raphael someone you're comfortable taking that chance on?

[Toaster Maximus]

All the promises he made with the deal for the crown have loopholes, he would never do somethings and such that one of his right hand people wouldn't do for him, once he secures the nine he can just have others act on his behalf he is not directly doing anything himself. so yeah him getting the crown is bad

He just will have his people go out and dominate, he isn't doing anything directly

[Big Moustache]

Originally posted by Frosty Mist:

Does it make much difference though on who is 'in-charge' of the nine hells and how it affects things? I mean it seems he promises he will never attack the realms outside of the nine hells right?

But the devil is in the fine print. For example: our politicians are turning beautiful major cities into 3th world slums, smelling of pee in every street. And slowly but sure, erase our ancient cultures and heritage. But all we hear about it is positive! Cultural enrichment this, tolerance that. But we really living on top of a ticking time bomb now.

And that's just fine print from our "elected" politicians. Imagine what a devil on mega steroids will do

[Aria Athena]

To me it sounded like Raphael was talking way too much out of his ass. First Avernus, then Asmodeous and then THE WORLD. I imagine my character having a very unconvinced, deadpan face during his monologue.

[Toaster Maximus]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

To me it sounded like Raphael was talking way too much out of his ass. First Avernus, then Asmodeous and then THE WORLD. I imagine my character having a very unconvinced, deadpan face during his monologue.

The 9th is out of his reach will admit, since that arch devil is still a god he his cultist at one point made most tiieflings his bloodline so he could be a racial god if I recall right

[GriffinPilgrim]

Originally posted by Frosty Mist:

Originally posted by GriffinPilgrim:

Raphael is a devil, that is to say he's the concepts of tyranny, greed and systemic abuse walking around in a nice suit. And giving him the crown gives him the power of a god. So yeah, pretty bad.

Does it make much difference though on who is 'in-charge' of the nine hells and how it affects things? I mean it seems he promises he will never attack the realms outside of the nine hells right?

Also hard to say whether he actually succeeds, but seems the bad part is getting locked out of other endings when you can do better things with it?

The current ruler of Avernus, Zariel, is a nasty piece of work but she's also focused on the Blood War against the demons (since she justifies her Fall to herself as being a necessary evil) leaving her less time to screw with mortals. That's how Asmodeus, ruler of the Hells, likes Avernus' ruler; someone has to manage the War. Raphael is focused on his own power and would likely neglect the Blood War to contend with Asmodeus for rulership of the Nine.
Now, Asmodeus has seen off plenty of threats before so Raphael will likely lose but even the chance of him winning is catastrophic. Asmodeus is evil but stable, he's well aware the ruling the entirety of reality is not a realistic goal. He's content with the balance of good and evil, law and chaos, leaning on the scales as much as he can to favour evil and law. Raphael is planning on upsetting that balance for his own gain. He'll fail, the universe doesn't work that way, but if he rules the Hells he'll wreck up a lot while doing so.

[Frosty Mist]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Well, it depends on how you view the epilogue you see after you give Raphael the Crown.

He tells you, in his usual cheery way,

He will use the power of it to subjugate the Nine Hells, and then when he's done, he will ALSO come knocking to your own plane, the Prime Material Plane.

Maybe it's bombast. Maybe he's not going to be able to do it. But he says that's what's going to happen next.

There aren't many ways I could rationalize that as a 'good' outcome.

BTW, not that anybody ruling the Nine Hells are paragons of 'virtue' ... they are ALL Lawful Evil and have already been waging a massive Blood War with each other ... but him ruling over all the rest ... well that doesn't sound that 'good' to me, either.

I just initially thought it would be neutral, not really good or bad because he apparently promised to be in a state of non-aggression with the mortal realm when making the pact.

Yeah, I thought it makes no difference if he was in-charge and even if he did try to go for the mortal realms, wouldn't the combined efforts of the gods put a stop to him and they would just take away the crown?

[Toaster Maximus]

Originally posted by Frosty Mist:

Originally posted by seeker1:

Well, it depends on how you view the epilogue you see after you give Raphael the Crown.

He tells you, in his usual cheery way,

He will use the power of it to subjugate the Nine Hells, and then when he's done, he will ALSO come knocking to your own plane, the Prime Material Plane.

Maybe it's bombast. Maybe he's not going to be able to do it. But he says that's what's going to happen next.

There aren't many ways I could rationalize that as a 'good' outcome.

BTW, not that anybody ruling the Nine Hells are paragons of 'virtue' ... they are ALL Lawful Evil and have already been waging a massive Blood War with each other ... but him ruling over all the rest ... well that doesn't sound that 'good' to me, either.

I just initially thought it would be neutral, not really good or bad because he apparently promised to be in a state of non-aggression with the mortal realm when making the pact.

Yeah, I thought it makes no difference if he was in-charge and even if he did try to go for the mortal realms, wouldn't the combined efforts of the gods put a stop to him and they would just take away the crown?

Once he became a god different rules set kick in, it does not matter his promises why him personally saying he would not do something is the key wording on his promises, his followers would be free to act and AO sets the rules for gods

[seeker1]

Originally posted by Frosty Mist:

because he apparently promised to be in a state of non-aggression with the mortal realm when making the pact.

Uh huh. And have you noticed every devil in this game lies ... Zariel (if offscreen), Mizora, Raphael, etc. A lot of companions say not to make deals with devils ... Wyll in particular knows how they will lie and twist things to always manipulate deals with them in their favor and to your disadvantage.

[Frosty Mist]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Originally posted by Frosty Mist:

because he apparently promised to be in a state of non-aggression with the mortal realm when making the pact.

Uh huh. And have you noticed every devil in this game lies ... Zariel (if offscreen), Mizora, Raphael, etc. A lot of companions say not to make deals with devils ... Wyll in particular knows how they will lie and twist things to always manipulate deals with them in their favor and to your disadvantage.

Isn't he breaking a part of the contract where he promised non-aggression with mortals though if he goes against that in the deal?