[MINMAX] Ranger Gloom Stalker > Rogue

[Riitoken]

Somewhere in Act3, I began feeling that lack of Rogue utility in combat. Truthfully, I felt it long before that but I was in denial - because I like Rogues and stealth in general. I was just coping with Astarian's single attack for the entire game.

But after the Orin fight and her Shroud-Self dagger assassins - who also stalk the sewers - after seeing them get multiple dagger hits per turn and then disappear, I thought "Why in the hell is Astarian not able to do this?"

A little research uncovered the Shroud-Self ability.

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shroud_Self

Apparently Larian thought we'd really like it, if the Bhaal assassins had a kind of stealth sanctuary ability - because that's what it feels like. Now as it turns out, Shroud Self is undone with any AOE damage of any kind - my favorite being the big Hammer Slam with my MC fighter. It knocks them into visible and it does feel great, I must admit. But that does not change my mind about the Rogues.

A little more research and I discover Umbral Shroud, a Ranger : Gloom Stalker subclass feature.

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Umbral_Shroud

I got excited (temporarily), and I respec'd Haslin (recently rescued) to a level 12 Gloom Stalker with Dual wielding focus. I gave him the legendary shortsword Crimson Mischief, and the legendary dagger Bloodthirst - from Orin - this seems rather poetic given what happened right? He went from big-hearted bear druid to GloomBlood ranger assasin.

So now I gotta take him for a test drive right? So I head back to the temple where there are remnant Bhaalist neutrals lingering at the entrance. Now I am pumped thinking I'm going to have an identical experience as Shroud-Self. Nope. Haslin gets to do it once then must rest - hopes dashed.

But then it happened! Haslin got multiple attacks each round with crits (which helped my bias), and within only 2 turns I knew this class was better than Astarion. And this fact is the motivation for this OP.

Last night I went after Raphael with MC Fighter, Shadowheart, Minsc (respec Barbian zerker), and Haslin the dual wielding assasin. He got multiple attacks each turn. If there was any doubt in my mind, the Raphael fight killed all doubt. Because Astarian just would not have delivered the same in combat (I concede lockpicking here).

In BG3, in Act3, Gloom Stalkers are greater than Rogues. Fact.

Don't believe me. Try it.

[Riitoken]

Diposting pertama kali oleh TheBlueFox:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Riitoken:

So I just now fought the guild shipment crew at the docks - triggering the Archduke quest.

Halsin gets 3 attacks on turn1 because he gets an ambusher attack - as a Gloom Stalker. So his combat feels almost the same as my MC fighter who gets 3-4 attacks depending.

Astarian does not grant the same combat experience.

Like I said, you have to be a Thief Rogue (Not Assassin). You need to use Double Hand crossbows in both hands. And you need to use your Main hand + Offhand + Offhand. You'll get 3 attacks.

If you are an assassin, you can get a Sneak attack to START combat, triggering Surprise. Then you get a guaranteed critical sneak attack on your first turn. for 2d6 + 12d6 sneak attack damage for about 49 average damage on your first hit. I usually like to just stealth and break combat, and do it again, it's kind of funny.

Astarion can make 3 attacks with hand crossbows. Just saying

I hear ya on the hand cross-bows, I do.

Halsin has the legendary shortsword Crimson Mischief, and the legendary dagger Bloodthirst - both from Orin. So unless you can point me to Legendary hand cross-bows, just understand why I am more interested in using the legendary sword and dagger 3x, versus uncommon weapons.

[TheBlueFox]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Riitoken:

Diposting pertama kali oleh TheBlueFox:

Like I said, you have to be a Thief Rogue (Not Assassin). You need to use Double Hand crossbows in both hands. And you need to use your Main hand + Offhand + Offhand. You'll get 3 attacks.

If you are an assassin, you can get a Sneak attack to START combat, triggering Surprise. Then you get a guaranteed critical sneak attack on your first turn. for 2d6 + 12d6 sneak attack damage for about 49 average damage on your first hit. I usually like to just stealth and break combat, and do it again, it's kind of funny.

Astarion can make 3 attacks with hand crossbows. Just saying

I hear ya on the hand cross-bows, I do.

Halsin has the legendary shortsword Crimson Mischief, and the legendary dagger Bloodthirst - both from Orin. So unless you can point me to Legendary hand cross-bows, just understand why I am more interested in using the legendary sword and dagger 3x, versus uncommon weapons.

You can also make 3 attacks with normal weapons too. Same way (Main hand + Offhand + Offhand), But because Rogues do not have the "Two weapon fighting" Fighting style, they don't get the +5 damage to their offhand attacks.

However, If you're using Orin's dagger BLOODTHIRST in the main hand, you can use your dagger to inflict vulnerable status to piercing attacks, then use your offhand to make a double damage sneak attack on your SECOND hit.

you have to go into your reactions and select "Always Ask" on Sneak attack, this will let you use sneak attack on your second hit.

If you're doing this method, then actually Rogues will outdamage rangers, getting double sneak attack damage for 14d6 on every second strike is very powerful, And you get 2 chances to land it

[DeMasked]

I can see how people would believe that the Rogue isn't that amazing. Imo it's more of a feeling or lack of options that other classes can bring.

Rogue is consistent burst damage in that they don't rely on any resource for sneak attack and getting one off every round can be rather easy to do.

I played a thief in Solasta Crown of the Magister and it was kinda boring shooting once per turn until eventually I got items that I could use with Fast Hands. Otherwise I was kinda a healer by shoving potions down people's throats as a bonus action lol.

Imo Divinity Original Sin 2 feels better early on because you have 4 actions that can be used for moving, attacking, using abilities or using spells. You can spend all actions to move, or sit in one place and fire off 2 spells that compliment each other + you retain unused actions of up to 6 I think (so use 2 on one round, 6 the next round).

Later in the game with BG3 it gets better for a number of classes + with items / potions. Potions of speed you can get rather early on.

[Riitoken]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DeMasked:

I can see how people would believe that the Rogue isn't that amazing. Imo it's more of a feeling or lack of options that other classes can bring.

Well said. The context is combat. I don't consider off-hand to be a 2nd attack.

[ChuckyDontCare]

With the right gear and bonus attack can be lethal, silence/paralyze, can also get big crits with Dual Wielding Feat.
When I leave Astarion behind I almost always miss the damage and overall utility.
But there's always something better, just depends on how you want to play. I don't plan on multi-classing at all for my the Honor run I'm going for next; some of that stuff seems a bit silly from an RP standpoint, like dual hand crossbows Bards or whatever....not my bag baby.

[Nico]

Rogue is literally the worst class in the game and their only utility are there in the first two levels of that class.

[Zaris]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DeMasked:

I can see how people would believe that the Rogue isn't that amazing. Imo it's more of a feeling or lack of options that other classes can bring.

Because they aren't amazing in combat. Outside combat they are good for pickpocket and that's it. Just a little comparison between rogue and fighter with the given options of the game:
- fighter: 6 attacks hasted + 1 on crit/kill, dmg: 2d6 greatsword + 2 magic + 2 poison ring + 10 great weapon master + 6 str (gloves) = 7 * 27 = 189 dmg each round with 100% hit chance with advantage melee ring.
- rogue (thief): hasted 4 attacks (2 bonus action pts), dmg: dual wield shortsword d6 + 2 magic + 2 poison ring + 5 dex = 12,5 dmg. Sneak attack 6d6 = 21 dmg. 4 * 12,5 + 21 = 71 dmg.
- rogue/gloom ranged: 6 attacks hasted (2 bonus action pts, extra attack ranger), dmg: dual hand crossbows: d6 + 2 magic + 2 poison ring + 10 sharpshooter + 5 dex = 22,5 dmg, sneak 6d6 = 21 dmg. Total: 6 * 22,5 + 21 = 156 dmg / 177 dmg with hunter mark

Crit equip is possible for all these setups with minor exclusions so the dmg should be around the same just higher.

edit: added gloom/thief for the comparison. That combo is at least somewhere near the fighter.

[TheBlueFox]

XD You compared a ROGUE, with 1 attack per round with a sneak attack. to a FIGHTER with 3 attacks per round, access to great weapon mastery for an extra bonus action attack, and action surge. In a contest of who can FIGHT better

[northernwater]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Riitoken:

I was just coping with Astarian's single attack for the entire game.

I can't imagine trying to win fights with a single attack per turn.

We should boycott larian and then write suggestions complaining about how easy the honor mode is.

[Ceredh]

@ Zaris: I like your examples but I don't totally understand the calculation. Why do you include Haste, a potion/spell all can use? What do you mean with "advantage melee ring"? How can a ring with advantage grant 100% hit chance, especially if you have a -5 to hits? If the Fighter has advantage with every attack, why not the Rogue (like with Risky Ring)? If it is a lvl 12 Fighter with 3 normal attacks, what about Action Surge?

Generally It is also debatable to compare always late builds with great hit chances due to op items. In reality a lot of the builds suffer from hit problems a long way through the game and during important fights. Some Fighters less than Rangers or Rogues.

[DeMasked]

It is kinda neat how Sneak Attack can trigger off either a Main Action or a Bonus Action.

In the game it is a bit misleading because if you "Use" the Sneak Attack button on an enemy it will use it as a main action but if you just attack an enemy with a bonus action via dual wield it too will trigger the Sneak Attack.

I wasn't really aware of that. You could cast a spell with a scroll or Arcane Trickster with 1-2 Wizard and then follow up with a Sneak Attack possibly. Spell Sniper could give you Eldritch Blast working on Intelligence instead of Charisma. Could be nifty.

[Riitoken]

Diposting pertama kali oleh TheBlueFox:

XD You compared a ROGUE, with 1 attack per round with a sneak attack. to a FIGHTER with 3 attacks per round, access to great weapon mastery for an extra bonus action attack, and action surge. In a contest of who can FIGHT better

You must be replying to Zaris here? My OP comapares Rogue and Gloom Stalker.

[Riitoken]

Anybody care to change my mind, I am listening. Offer your Level 12 Rogue build and I'll respec Astarian and do a test drive.

But before you offer that, I'd suggest you respec Halsin as a Gloom Stalker per the OP and try that first.

[DeMasked]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Riitoken:

Anybody care to change my mind, I am listening. Offer your Level 12 Rogue build and I'll respec Astarian and do a test drive.

But before you offer that, I'd suggest you respec Halsin as a Gloom Stalker per the OP and try that first.

I don't have a build as I've only ever used 3 into Thief for my Monk play through. Classic Solasta I also did a thief and that had no multi classing - terrible experience.

I might try another character and go into Rogue Arcane Trickster. Perhaps 10 into that and 2 into Wizard. Main action would be using a Cantrip or Spell and then with dual wielding you can pop off the Sneak Attack. Could offer a lot of utility and with scrolls you could do a lot of damage + Spell Sniper Feat can give you Eldritch Blast scaling on Intelligence which at level 10 I think it is 3 hits of 1D10.

I'm not sure if such a build would be better damage wise but it could be more interesting then what you are describing when it comes to "hitting once per turn".

Diposting pertama kali oleh Riitoken:

Diposting pertama kali oleh DeMasked:

I can see how people would believe that the Rogue isn't that amazing. Imo it's more of a feeling or lack of options that other classes can bring.

I don't consider off-hand to be a 2nd attack.

Imo this is a flawed point to make when it comes to how you can utilise Sneak Attack. Dual Wielding can offer a lot of versatility for rogues.

edit: I won't be playing a Gloomstalker for awhile. Currently messing around on Honour Mode with a Ranger Beastmaster that would partially spec into Druid for Haste and possibly another attack while wildshaped if it stacks that way like Pact of the Blade Warlock.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

So I have bin doing 4Assassin/2 paladin/5 hunter right now, took collosus slayer. I jump around to test stuff but I remained adamant on assassin.
Set so smite triggers on crits to ask cuz you might not need to overkill then your first opening round on surprises is strong. Once you get 5 ranger I got 2 primary attacks which is pretty strong.

It's all a matter of how you wanna play though you can 100% find a good build down any class.