[MINMAX] Ranger Gloom Stalker > Rogue

[Riitoken]

Somewhere in Act3, I began feeling that lack of Rogue utility in combat. Truthfully, I felt it long before that but I was in denial - because I like Rogues and stealth in general. I was just coping with Astarian's single attack for the entire game.

But after the Orin fight and her Shroud-Self dagger assassins - who also stalk the sewers - after seeing them get multiple dagger hits per turn and then disappear, I thought "Why in the hell is Astarian not able to do this?"

A little research uncovered the Shroud-Self ability.

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Shroud_Self

Apparently Larian thought we'd really like it, if the Bhaal assassins had a kind of stealth sanctuary ability - because that's what it feels like. Now as it turns out, Shroud Self is undone with any AOE damage of any kind - my favorite being the big Hammer Slam with my MC fighter. It knocks them into visible and it does feel great, I must admit. But that does not change my mind about the Rogues.

A little more research and I discover Umbral Shroud, a Ranger : Gloom Stalker subclass feature.

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Umbral_Shroud

I got excited (temporarily), and I respec'd Haslin (recently rescued) to a level 12 Gloom Stalker with Dual wielding focus. I gave him the legendary shortsword Crimson Mischief, and the legendary dagger Bloodthirst - from Orin - this seems rather poetic given what happened right? He went from big-hearted bear druid to GloomBlood ranger assasin.

So now I gotta take him for a test drive right? So I head back to the temple where there are remnant Bhaalist neutrals lingering at the entrance. Now I am pumped thinking I'm going to have an identical experience as Shroud-Self. Nope. Haslin gets to do it once then must rest - hopes dashed.

But then it happened! Haslin got multiple attacks each round with crits (which helped my bias), and within only 2 turns I knew this class was better than Astarion. And this fact is the motivation for this OP.

Last night I went after Raphael with MC Fighter, Shadowheart, Minsc (respec Barbian zerker), and Haslin the dual wielding assasin. He got multiple attacks each turn. If there was any doubt in my mind, the Raphael fight killed all doubt. Because Astarian just would not have delivered the same in combat (I concede lockpicking here).

In BG3, in Act3, Gloom Stalkers are greater than Rogues. Fact.

Don't believe me. Try it.

[BIG E.]

Thats why you multiclass into both to get most important abilities while avoiding the useless parts.

Gloomstalker into thief or assassin

or start thief or assassin then get gloomstalker

Something like gloomstalker 5/ assassin 4/ champion 3

[OddJob]

Of course!

Rogue is very bad and Ranger is infinitely better. Who's arguing this? lmao

[Goblin King Jareth]

I Gloomstalkered into BM fighter, no wimpy toy crossbows, no scammy handses in yer pokkitz guy just a big ol' titanbow and a chair leg and a legendary dwarf dagger and shadow helmet and sniping all the things from the dark. So much fun, so many trick shots.

[Firecam]

You have potions of invisibility, unless it's no pot challenge.

[Riitoken]

Originally posted by BIG E.:

Thats why you multiclass into both to get most important abilities while avoiding the useless parts.

Gloomstalker into thief or assassin

or start thief or assassin then get gloomstalker

Something like gloomstalker 5/ assassin 4/ champion 3

I hear ya. I had to try a single class Level 12 first. I'm not disappointed. Why the GS gets multiple attacks and the rogue does not, IDK.

It's the multiple attacks per turn that is the feel-good mechanic.

[TheBlueFox]

Alot of it is due to the fact people have no idea you can turn "Prompt for Sneak attack" On in your reactions menu.

Once you realize this, you can attack with Orrin's dagger, giving enemies vulnerabilty to piercing damage, and then with your OTHER HAND, use your sneak attack to use the sneak attack's damage when it's doubled.

You can also do this to not accidentally waste your sneak attack by only using it when it HITS, and not on a missed attack, like a paladin smite

[Riitoken]

Originally posted by Firecam:

You have potions of invisibility, unless it's no pot challenge.

Sure. The NPCs get to Shroud-Self each combat turn. That was part of my original motive. I thought I'd get that kind of sub-class feature, but no. Larian kept the stealth candy for their NPCs.

[TheBlueFox]

Originally posted by Riitoken:

Originally posted by BIG E.:

Thats why you multiclass into both to get most important abilities while avoiding the useless parts.

Gloomstalker into thief or assassin

or start thief or assassin then get gloomstalker

Something like gloomstalker 5/ assassin 4/ champion 3

I hear ya. I had to try a single class Level 12 first. I'm not disappointed. Why the GS gets multiple attacks and the rogue does not, IDK.

It's the multiple attacks per turn that is the feel-good mechanic.

Rogues get offhand attacks too. There's NO reason to use a single rapier when you can use dual shortswords or daggers. The difference in damage between a rapier and a shortsword is an average of 1 point. Your damage is going to come from sneak attack, and using an offhand attack increases your chances to land one.

Even with hand crossbows, you can do an offhand attack with a hand crossbow and get a sneak attack if you miss with your main hand.

[Riitoken]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Originally posted by Riitoken:

I hear ya. I had to try a single class Level 12 first. I'm not disappointed. Why the GS gets multiple attacks and the rogue does not, IDK.

It's the multiple attacks per turn that is the feel-good mechanic.

Rogues get offhand attacks too. There's NO reason to use a single rapier when you can use dual shortswords or daggers. The difference in damage between a rapier and a shortsword is an average of 1 point. Your damage is going to come from sneak attack, and using an offhand attack increases your chances to land one.

Even with hand crossbows, you can do an offhand attack with a hand crossbow and get a sneak attack if you miss with your main hand.

I get 3 attacks with Halsin as Gloom Stalker.

It feels like 3 attacks because it is.

Tell me how to get 3 attacks with a Rogue.

[Kiyaya]

Rogues are more for non-combat skills and multiclassing than actual combat. This is well known. What good is a thief who constantly gets caught and has to fight his way out?

[TheBlueFox]

Originally posted by Riitoken:

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Rogues get offhand attacks too. There's NO reason to use a single rapier when you can use dual shortswords or daggers. The difference in damage between a rapier and a shortsword is an average of 1 point. Your damage is going to come from sneak attack, and using an offhand attack increases your chances to land one.

Even with hand crossbows, you can do an offhand attack with a hand crossbow and get a sneak attack if you miss with your main hand.

I get 3 attacks with Halsin as Gloom Stalker.

It feels like 3 attacks because it is.

Tell me how to get 3 attacks with a Rogue.

Thief rogue gets 2 bonus actions to make 2 bonus action attacks, Dual hand crossbows. 1 main hand bow attack, 2 offhand bow attacks.


But the damage isn't going to be quite the same.

A ranger with 20 dexterity gets a +5 to their damage.
Lets assume you're using a +2 weapon. So that's +7 to damage.
If you're using Sharpshooter that's +17 to each hit. Lets just say you're gonna hit every time.
A longbow has a 1d8 hit die, so lets just say an average of (4.5+17)= 21.5 raw damage per hit, for like... 64.5 damage if all 3 bow attacks hit. But you can also use special arrows on each of these attacks.

A rogue sharpshooter is going to get the same +17 (+5 dex, +10 sharpshooter, +2 hand crossbows). Hand crossbows are only a 1d6 weapon, so you'll only get 20.5 damage on a hit. And you can't use Special Arrows on an offhand strikes for some reason. So a little less damage.

But a Rogue will get 6d6 sneak attack (3.5x6 damage average, for 21 extra damage on a sneak attack.) So that's
61.5 damage +21 sneak attack damage = 81.5.

If all the hits hit, using sharpshooter.

If a Ranger crits, a ranger only gets 1d8 extra damage. If a rogue crits on a sneak attack, he gets 7d6 more damage.


tl;dr, A rogue thief using sharp shooter gets 3 attacks, slightly weaker attacks but not by a heck of a lot, and sneak attack is a good boost. A rogue has to be a thief, and HAS to use all their bonus actions, whereas a ranger can still use their bonus actions to hide.

This doesn't factor in the Ranger's stalkers flurry or dread ambusher, this is just the basic attack damage

[Riitoken]

Originally posted by Kiyaya:

Rogues are more for non-combat skills and multiclassing than actual combat. This is well known. What good is a thief who constantly gets caught and has to fight his way out?

Yep. I hear ya. Makes sense.

[mike_hanna211]

I think rogues as a class in CRPGs have a misconception based on their roles in MMORPGs (main DPS). Rogues in D&D are not your main DPS; it's a utility class, like bards.

That being said, I made my Astarion go to rogue 3 (assassin), then ranger (and I'll also pick Gloomstalker). But I want to focus on archery, not melee.

[Riitoken]

Originally posted by TheBlueFox:

Originally posted by Riitoken:

I get 3 attacks with Halsin as Gloom Stalker.

It feels like 3 attacks because it is.

Tell me how to get 3 attacks with a Rogue.

Thief rogue gets 2 bonus actions to make 2 bonus action attacks, Dual hand crossbows. 1 main hand bow attack, 2 offhand bow attacks.


But the damage isn't going to be quite the same.

A ranger with 20 dexterity gets a +5 to their damage.
Lets assume you're using a +2 weapon. So that's +7 to damage.
If you're using Sharpshooter that's +17 to each hit. Lets just say you're gonna hit every time.
A longbow has a 1d8 hit die, so lets just say an average of (4.5+17)= 21.5 raw damage per hit, for like... 64.5 damage if all 3 bow attacks hit. But you can also use special arrows on each of these attacks.

A rogue sharpshooter is going to get the same +17 (+5 dex, +10 sharpshooter, +2 hand crossbows). Hand crossbows are only a 1d6 weapon, so you'll only get 20.5 damage on a hit. And you can't use Special Arrows on an offhand strikes for some reason. So a little less damage.

But a Rogue will get 6d6 sneak attack (3.5x6 damage average, for 21 extra damage on a sneak attack.) So that's
61.5 damage +21 sneak attack damage = 81.5.

If all the hits hit, using sharpshooter.

If a Ranger crits, a ranger only gets 1d8 extra damage. If a rogue crits on a sneak attack, he gets 7d6 more damage.


tl;dr, A rogue thief using sharp shooter gets 3 attacks, slightly weaker attacks but not by a heck of a lot, and sneak attack is a good boost. A rogue has to be a thief, and HAS to use all their bonus actions, whereas a ranger can still use their bonus actions to hide.

This doesn't factor in the Ranger's stalkers flurry or dread ambusher, this is just the basic attack damage

So I just now fought the guild shipment crew at the docks - triggering the Archduke quest.

Halsin gets 3 attacks on turn1 because he gets an ambusher attack - as a Gloom Stalker. So his combat feels almost the same as my MC fighter who gets 3-4 attacks depending.

Astarian does not grant the same combat experience.

[TheBlueFox]

Originally posted by Riitoken:

So I just now fought the guild shipment crew at the docks - triggering the Archduke quest.

Halsin gets 3 attacks on turn1 because he gets an ambusher attack - as a Gloom Stalker. So his combat feels almost the same as my MC fighter who gets 3-4 attacks depending.

Astarian does not grant the same combat experience.

Like I said, you have to be a Thief Rogue (Not Assassin). You need to use Double Hand crossbows in both hands. And you need to use your Main hand + Offhand + Offhand. You'll get 3 attacks.

If you are an assassin, you can get a Sneak attack to START combat, triggering Surprise. Then you get a guaranteed critical sneak attack on your first turn. for 2d6 + 12d6 sneak attack damage for about 49 average damage on your first hit. I usually like to just stealth and break combat, and do it again, it's kind of funny.

Astarion can make 3 attacks with hand crossbows. Just saying