Why Larian Can't Build Challenging Encounters

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

New 'Honor' mode doesn't matter - the fundamental issue is how easy it is to exploit one shots, alpha/burst/nova damage, mechanics that allow attacking with perfect impunity, etc.

Honor mode is inherently no different than Tactician, sans the one save part.

https://youtu.be/0_7W3DxUBzs?si=F0-skF04FRksdUgG

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by topetepeterson:

Originally posted by Razorblade:

It's definitely a Larian issue. They threw out Attunement, give out inordinately powerul magical items early, ♥♥♥♥♥♥ with the action economy, completely changed how Initiative works, placed incredibly powerful consumables everywhere, made OP Illithid powers a thing, made Resurrection dirt cheap, flooded the player with gold, and created a very abusable Throwing system, complete with bottomless pits.

5E isn't the most difficult system in the world, but Larian themselves made BG3 baby-easy mode by throwing out every mechanic meant to introduce some kind of balance to the system, as well as adding their own mechanics that further screw the balance. There's nothing inherently wrong with making an easy game, but saying "blame WotC" is a bit disingenuous when the Larianisms are largely what lead to power creep.

And it's so, so, SO fun. Pure genius.

There's a reason this is the best-selling cRPG of all time. Well, there are MANY reasons, but this is definitely one of them.

[victorvnv]

They should have limited the companions to pure class and only to their designated sub class. Shadowhearth should have always been a trickery pure cleric until she betrays Shar in which case she could respec to Light cleric , or with a persuasion check to a different domain but still a pure cleric.

Gale should have been evoker wizzard but after say Elmenster in act 1 he should have been given the option for a different subclass if he so chooses

And so on.

Would be alot easier to balance a game with the idea that only the main character can be super OP with multiclass combinations than balance with the idea that everyone can be every possible combination.

And this way there will be no way to have Bard+ Sorcerer + monk+ paladin in the same game and those are some of the most powerful classes. Would also limit

Imagine back in Fallout 2 if you could make every companion npc into anything you want at any given time lol. You would just get max charisma , get 6 NPCs and give them all power armor and Gauss rifles and max out their small guns skill, put all of their points in Perception so they always gets initiative and then they would gut every encounter before any of the enemies could even make a move lol, your main character wouldn’t even have to fight …

And though it may have been fun running around with an unstoppable party , it would kill any feeling of danger or challenge.

Yea , having options is fun. But in reality sometimes less is more

[Viper]

Larian did not invent the rules for D & D.

[topetepeterson]

Originally posted by victorvnv:

They should have limited the companions to pure class and only to their designated sub class. Shadowhearth should have always been a trickery pure cleric until she betrays Shar in which case she could respec to Light cleric , or with a persuasion check to a different domain but still a pure cleric.

Gale should have been evoker wizzard but after say Elmenster in act 1 he should have been given the option for a different subclass if he so chooses

And so on.

Would be alot easier to balance a game with the idea that only the main character can be super OP with multiclass combinations than balance with the idea that everyone can be every possible combination.

And this way there will be no way to have Bard+ Sorcerer + monk+ paladin in the same game and those are some of the most powerful classes. Would also limit

Imagine back in Fallout 2 if you could make every companion npc into anything you want at any given time lol. You would just get max charisma , get 6 NPCs and give them all power armor and Gauss rifles and max out their small guns skill, put all of their points in Perception so they always gets initiative and then they would gut every encounter before any of the enemies could even make a move lol, your main character wouldn’t even have to fight …

And though it may have been fun running around with an unstoppable party , it would kill any feeling of danger or challenge.

Yea , having options is fun. But in reality sometimes less is more

Sometimes less is more, but BG3 is the most. God bless it.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

I think the issue is how does one make a challenge for every level of skill, for me tactician is solid i dont think i need to go harder for hard sakes lol but i also dont cheese and do insane stuff, hell i thought a build was to strong so i altered my build entirely. i wanted to have fun and it just wasnt.
So play with some non meta builds shoot do all the worst builds you can lol beat the entire game solo with 1 point in each class in honor mode will that challenge you?

[Razorblade]

Originally posted by topetepeterson:

And it's so, so, SO fun. Pure genius.

And it could be more fun with some more challenge and better progression.

I like chugging a Strength potion and yeeting my enemies, but do Strength potions need to be so readily available, and botttomless pits so plentiful? Why not make it a special occasion instead of the de facto optimal build?

Why is Resurrection in a permadeath mode so cheap? Honor Mode is supposed to punish your mistakes, but it only punishes party wipes.

Haste is already a strong spell; do I need to be able to cast Lightning twice in one turn, instead of being "limited" to "only" a Lightning bolt and an Eldritch Blast?

Why can I make any enemy Vulnerable to Lightning without any kind of Save?

Why can I get permanent Advantage, 5 damage negation, and Resistance to all damage in the first Act? Why can I wear like 10 potent magical items instead of having a limit?

It's easy enough to avoid a few exploits, like choosing to not hoard every barrel in the game, but BG3 is just power creep at every turn. Unless you are simply bad at the game, you will be overpowered. It's unavoidable.

BG3 is a fantastic game, but there was no reason to throw out Attunement and other common sense balancing rules that 5E's designers created precisely to address the balancing issues that BG3 faces.

[Maraxus]

With how OP multiclassing is, yeah either limit multiclassing or reclassing options or just make a difficulty with omg yuge numbers(like some mods). Though yeah the second one might be harder to balance....

Though tbh as long as you don't do gamebreaking stuff the current honor mode is a beautiful mix of tension while still giving you all the tools to deal with every encounter and having to deal with the consequences of every action in and out of combat, feels pretty close to the spirit of dnd.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

Originally posted by Maraxus:

With how OP multiclassing is, yeah either limit multiclassing or reclassing options or just make a difficulty with omg yuge numbers(like some mods). Though yeah the second one might be harder to balance....

Though tbh as long as you don't do gamebreaking stuff the current honor mode is a beautiful mix of tension while still giving you all the tools to deal with every encounter and having to deal with the consequences of every action in and out of combat, feels pretty close to the spirit of dnd.

Custom mode let's you disable multi classing lol but I see no way to enable 1 or more features of honor mode like 1 save or extra encounters that honor mode offers, so hopefully that was an oversight

[Maraxus]

Originally posted by KingOfFriedChicken:

Originally posted by Maraxus:

With how OP multiclassing is, yeah either limit multiclassing or reclassing options or just make a difficulty with omg yuge numbers(like some mods). Though yeah the second one might be harder to balance....

Though tbh as long as you don't do gamebreaking stuff the current honor mode is a beautiful mix of tension while still giving you all the tools to deal with every encounter and having to deal with the consequences of every action in and out of combat, feels pretty close to the spirit of dnd.

Custom mode let's you disable multi classing lol but I see no way to enable 1 or more features of honor mode like 1 save or extra encounters that honor mode offers, so hopefully that was an oversight

Yup, hopefully custom mode gets all the options and more in the future. The no HP bar option seems intriguing... kinda like the older games.

[amathy]

Originally posted by surreptitious:

Its this simple

Honor mode = No Withers

otherwise keeps it as is ...
Why would you leave a rez bot in camp , along with a spare character .. in the group just to sit beside withers and rez the group every time they die .... honor mode now means nothing.

Honour mode doesn't mean anything to begin with, it's just a difficulty setting in a single player game. If you're going to exploit the game to this extent you might as well open Steam achievement manager and just give yourself the achievement. And you also lose the ability to complain about the value of a difficulty setting when you're going far out of your way to make it mean nothing - that's your fault, nobody else's.

Now

Take out the circlet that gives 17 int
Take out the gloves that give 18 dex
Take out the Strength potions , or they last 10 turns .
Take out the club that gives 18 str

The circlet is now +2 int
The gloves are now +2 dex
Club is +2 str

None of those things are necessary at any point, or even really matter. I don't see how this somehow drastically alters balance in the game when plenty of optimal builds do not use these items, or in the case of the circlet where nobody is even using it at all.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

I would start by pruning player power - specifically by removing some of the unbalanced homebrew (bonus action Shove, Tavern Brawler, dbl cold/lightning damage, explosive barrels, etc.) and cutting the available magic items and consumables by around 1-2 - 2/3.

I would also get rid of most of the homebrew mechanics - lightning charges, momentum, etc.

[chipboundary]

I love how people are sitting here and acting like them throwing out some of D&D's "limitations" is part of the problem. Or even citing companion builds as part of the problem.

You can solo BG3 in any mode and wipe out every single encounter in 1 or two rounds. D&D 5e is no different. You don't need cheese or exploits. The rules, in the strictest deployment, makes both games a complete cakewalk.

Why is this? Approachability. These games are not designed for difficulty.

[Maraxus]

Tbf I am happy Larian is giving us alternative ways of adding challenge like hardcore mode, legendary actions, hidden health bars, hiding skill checks, etc instead of just buffing enemy numbers which is just an arms race that results in less and less classes/builds being viable.

[Alt]

Originally posted by surreptitious:

Its this simple

Honor mode = No Withers

otherwise keeps it as is ...
Why would you leave a rez bot in camp , along with a spare character .. in the group just to sit beside withers and rez the group every time they die .... honor mode now means nothing.

Now

Take out the circlet that gives 17 int
Take out the gloves that give 18 dex
Take out the Strength potions , or they last 10 turns .
Take out the club that gives 18 str

The circlet is now +2 int
The gloves are now +2 dex
Club is +2 str


This is a minimum start to giving Honor mode a sense of accomplishment as opposed to just a cheddar achievement

Funny. With Your changes you made those weapons OP. Not one of those items, bared potion of strength is OP. Because they cap your stats at 17-18. There is no point in using gloves for dex based character, and non dex based wont get much of anything from them. Same goes for circlet and the club. But, if they gave +2 bonus. Then you could get your str or dex up to 24 or 26 with your changes. Which is insane

[KingOfFriedChicken]

Originally posted by Alt:

Originally posted by surreptitious:

Its this simple

Honor mode = No Withers

otherwise keeps it as is ...
Why would you leave a rez bot in camp , along with a spare character .. in the group just to sit beside withers and rez the group every time they die .... honor mode now means nothing.

Now

Take out the circlet that gives 17 int
Take out the gloves that give 18 dex
Take out the Strength potions , or they last 10 turns .
Take out the club that gives 18 str

The circlet is now +2 int
The gloves are now +2 dex
Club is +2 str


This is a minimum start to giving Honor mode a sense of accomplishment as opposed to just a cheddar achievement

Funny. With Your changes you made those weapons OP. Not one of those items, bared potion of strength is OP. Because they cap your skills to 17-18. There is no point in using gloves for dex based character, and non dex based wont get much of anything from the in battle. Same goes for circlet and the club. But, if they gave +2 bonus. Then you could get your str or dex up to 24 or 26 with your changes. Which is insane

Balancing is hars work, people don't consider the ramifications of such a small change especially if they have never had to consider the wider scope that balancing in game is, where 1 small change can have a rippling effect across all builds.
Of course his idea could work with +2 if they kept them in line with the original item, instead of +2 it can be for Honor mode only +2 (but can't boost over 18) so your 20 str barbarian can't reach 24 lol