Champion vs. Battlemaster

[Giganx]

So, which do you think is better for a pure fighter?

From my very basic understanding of the subclasses Battlemaster gives you the superiority dice, which allow you to inflict status ailments on enemies, and champion gives you an additional 10% crit chance. If there are any other major selling points for each subclass I'd be curious to know.

I'm leaning towards Champion with a crit build.

[kbiz]

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Publicado originalmente por kbiz:

Another consideration is playstyle. I don't like to rest after every battle. Batttlemaster abilities are consumable, Champion crit bonus occurs at every attack.

Everything on battle master is a short rest refresh, so you can spam em to your hearts content.

You have to commit to always using your Batttlemaster abilities though. That means rest. That means another elixir the next day.

Everytime you don't use a Batttlemaster ability, the Champion gains an advantage.

[kbiz]

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Publicado originalmente por kbiz:

True, but we're talking about the Action(s), benefits, and the likely outcome in battle, not the ease of acquisition.

What should you spend Action points on the first turn is the question. What gets you the most bang for your buck.

And generally speaking, paralysis will get you the most bang for your buck, it's an insane shift in action economy, by both removing a full turn from the enemy, and making all of your following turns significantly more impactful.

I agree paralysis is best. But the action cost and probability of success is the issue in my opinion.

I prefer to cast those spells late-game.

[Recjawjind]

Publicado originalmente por kbiz:

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Everything on battle master is a short rest refresh, so you can spam em to your hearts content.

You have to commit to always using your Batttlemaster abilities though. That means rest. That means another elixir the next day.

Everytime you don't use a Batttlemaster ability, the Champion gains an advantage.

To be fair, after major fights you will usually use some form of rest, be it short or long, so you can spam them to your hearts content. Especially early on, accuracy + GWM all in is gonna swing fights insanely hard, later on even without accuracy you'll have virtually guaranteed hits with GWM all in on.
Technically you can also cheese infinite long rests by speccing a bard, using song of rest and refreshing it via a withers respec.

[FunkyMonkey]

Poor Eldritch knight, getting no love. It's my favorite. Shield, Blur and Misty step on a Fighter? Sign me up!

Though on the initial question, Battlemaster hands down.

[Recjawjind]

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

Poor Eldritch knight, getting no love. It's my favorite. Shield, Blur and Misty step on a Fighter? Sign me up!

Though on the initial question, Battlemaster hands down.

The only thing EK has really going for it is bonding a weapon for thrown builds.
1/3 casters kinda do get shafted.

[Firecam]

BM to have options and something to do, champion is just warrior with extra crit chance.

[FunkyMonkey]

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

Poor Eldritch knight, getting no love. It's my favorite. Shield, Blur and Misty step on a Fighter? Sign me up!

Though on the initial question, Battlemaster hands down.

The only thing EK has really going for it is bonding a weapon for thrown builds.
1/3 casters kinda do get shafted.

I don't know, I really feel they make the best tanks. Having full plate and shield and stack that with Shield spell, Blur for disadvantage against you and if you really, really, REALLY don't want to get hit, throw in Mirror image. Nothing is going to hit you. Then take utility spells like Longstrider so your other casters don't have to or even Magic missiles for guaranteed damage. Also Misty step for positioning is always useful. Sure, you have few spell slots but the ones you have, really count.

Pretty great.

[Goblin King Jareth]

EK for a Lae'zel tank, put the int circlet on her, shield reaction, chokepoint doorways or whatever front line, drop a cloud of daggers in front of her, and still hit hard since she's a fighter. 6/6 fighter wizard for an awesome spellsword. Combo a bit of those items that give you damage riders for casting spells for your occasional range opener or finisher need. Misty step and she's always where she needs to be in heavy armor.

I don't need that much magical firepower past 3rd level spells I feel and it means you don't have to take Gale if Lae'zel studies all the scrolls. A spellsword is pretty well in character for a Gith too. If she's an Evoker you can drop aoe right on top of yourself which beats the crap out of those weak cleave aoes and she can self haste and action surge so barely loses anything compared to pure fighter and won't be killed.

[Recjawjind]

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

The only thing EK has really going for it is bonding a weapon for thrown builds.
1/3 casters kinda do get shafted.

I don't know, I really feel they make the best tanks. Having full plate and shield and stack that with Shield spell, Blur for disadvantage against you and if you really, really, REALLY don't want to get hit, throw in Mirror image. Nothing is going to hit you. Then take utility spells like Longstrider so your other casters don't have to or even Magic missiles for guaranteed damage. Also Misty step for positioning is always useful. Sure, you have few spell slots but the ones you have, really count.

Pretty great.

Best tank in the game is abju wizard, absolutely 0 question or ambiguity about that. They are effectively invincible.

[FunkyMonkey]

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

I don't know, I really feel they make the best tanks. Having full plate and shield and stack that with Shield spell, Blur for disadvantage against you and if you really, really, REALLY don't want to get hit, throw in Mirror image. Nothing is going to hit you. Then take utility spells like Longstrider so your other casters don't have to or even Magic missiles for guaranteed damage. Also Misty step for positioning is always useful. Sure, you have few spell slots but the ones you have, really count.

Pretty great.

Best tank in the game is abju wizard, absolutely 0 question or ambiguity about that. They are effectively invincible.

Maybe but you are losing on other things you could do as a wizard, one of the best classes in the game, just to tank? Eldritch knight fighter doesn't lose out on anything a base Fighter could do by going Eldritch knight, it just gets better.

Is Eldritch knight better than Battlemaster? No. Is Eldritch knight a great Fighter? Absolutely.

[Recjawjind]

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Best tank in the game is abju wizard, absolutely 0 question or ambiguity about that. They are effectively invincible.

Maybe but you are losing on other things you could do as a wizard, one of the best classes in the game, just to tank? Eldritch knight fighter doesn't lose out on anything a base Fighter could do by going Eldritch knight, it just gets better.

Is Eldritch knight better than Battlemaster? No. Is Eldritch knight a great Fighter? Absolutely.

Not really tbh. What other wizard things can abju wizards not do?
Wizard subclasses are for the most part pretty minor in their effects, and purely in a vacuum (assuming honour mode rules at least) abju does all wizard stuff just fine, ontop of having godmode (because they are quasi-invincible)

[FunkyMonkey]

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

Maybe but you are losing on other things you could do as a wizard, one of the best classes in the game, just to tank? Eldritch knight fighter doesn't lose out on anything a base Fighter could do by going Eldritch knight, it just gets better.

Is Eldritch knight better than Battlemaster? No. Is Eldritch knight a great Fighter? Absolutely.

Not really tbh. What other wizard things can abju wizards not do?
Wizard subclasses are for the most part pretty minor in their effects, and purely in a vacuum (assuming honour mode rules at least) abju does all wizard stuff just fine, ontop of having godmode (because they are quasi-invincible)

I meant it more like in terms of that you have to be casting abjuration spells to keep up your ward, right? So you are limiting your wizards arsenal to keep up tanking, is more my point. Other wizards can be cast whatever spell the situation calls for, Abjuration wizard meant for "tanking" are more or less required to cast Abjuration spells.

I do think that Abjuration wizards are good and can be amazing tanks, but you are limiting yourself more if you want to tank than going with Eldritch knight, for example.

[Goblin King Jareth]

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

Maybe but you are losing on other things you could do as a wizard, one of the best classes in the game, just to tank? Eldritch knight fighter doesn't lose out on anything a base Fighter could do by going Eldritch knight, it just gets better.

Is Eldritch knight better than Battlemaster? No. Is Eldritch knight a great Fighter? Absolutely.

Not really tbh. What other wizard things can abju wizards not do?
Wizard subclasses are for the most part pretty minor in their effects, and purely in a vacuum (assuming honour mode rules at least) abju does all wizard stuff just fine, ontop of having godmode (because they are quasi-invincible)

You can make a pretty strong case for diviner (all around offense, defense and out of combat rolls) and alchemist (might even be the strongest to equip everyone with stupid amounts of buffs but tedious). Even necro (just bring a 20 str guy to load up the corpse wagon and throw your zombies at the enemy..I still want to try to design ek or oathbreaker/necro death knight around this lol).

[Recjawjind]

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

I meant it more like in terms of that you have to be casting abjuration spells to keep up your ward, right? So you are limiting your wizards arsenal to keep up tanking, is more my point. Other wizards can be cast whatever spell the situation calls for, Abjuration wizard meant for "tanking" are more or less required to cast Abjuration spells.

I do think that Abjuration wizards are good and can be amazing tanks, but you are limiting yourself more if you want to tank than going with Eldritch knight, for example.

Thankfully, abju spells are really good :P
Your bread and butter will be glyph of warding, which is basically a slightly weaker, but more versatile fireball, and with a very high spellsave DC, it's fantastic CC too.
Additionally, glyph of warding doesn't even break sanctuary, since it's TECHNICALLY not you hurting the enemy, so you can spam it while being untargetable yourself.

[Hobocop]

Publicado originalmente por FunkyMonkey:

Publicado originalmente por Recjawjind:

Not really tbh. What other wizard things can abju wizards not do?
Wizard subclasses are for the most part pretty minor in their effects, and purely in a vacuum (assuming honour mode rules at least) abju does all wizard stuff just fine, ontop of having godmode (because they are quasi-invincible)

I meant it more like in terms of that you have to be casting abjuration spells to keep up your ward, right? So you are limiting your wizards arsenal to keep up tanking, is more my point. Other wizards can be cast whatever spell the situation calls for, Abjuration wizard meant for "tanking" are more or less required to cast Abjuration spells.

I do think that Abjuration wizards are good and can be amazing tanks, but you are limiting yourself more if you want to tank than going with Eldritch knight, for example.

Eh, between Shield, Glyph of Warding and Counterspell (Counterspell is especially huge later in the game), an Abjuration wizard will have little trouble keeping up their ward.