Disciple Zrell is an idiot.

[Senkoau]

Disciple Zrell: "Go and retrieve this relic for us."
You: "As you command, what is the relic I am meant to retrieve?"
Disciple Zrell: "It is a relic that General Thorm desires that is all you need to know."
50 years later, you: "So do you think its that ornate mace? Or maybe this ancient tome . . . probably not this chalice. Although it might not be a magical relic."

I don't need to know why the leader of the army wants something but I do need to know what I'm meant to retrive if I'm going to you know actually retrieve it unless you want me to bring you every single item in the area you say to look in case its what you want. No wonder everyone failed so miserably at retrieving "the weapon" that's probably all they got told then spent their time grabbing every sword, bow, spear, mace and other weapon they could find.

[arikel.pv]

Actually what Z'rell needs from you is to reestablish the contact with necromancer, that's all. Perhaps she counted on Balthazar to decide your fate after helping (with obvious result). That's why she is so secretive about the relic. Also, she expects you to act as a real True Soul, that is, 'no questions, yessir!'
Fially, she is utterly loyal to the Absolte and the general, in that order. So you cannot expect her to say smth like 'bring me the only weapon with which the general might be destroyed', unless the Absolute whispers in her mind so.

[Senkoau]

Originally posted by arikel.pv:

Actually what Z'rell needs from you is to reestablish the contact with necromancer, that's all. Perhaps she counted on Balthazar to decide your fate after helping (with obvious result). That's why she is so secretive about the relic. Also, she expects you to act as a real True Soul, that is, 'no questions, yessir!'
Fially, she is utterly loyal to the Absolte and the general, in that order. So you cannot expect her to say smth like 'bring me the only weapon with which the general might be destroyed', unless the Absolute whispers in her mind so.

Except they've lost contact with Balthazar and don't know why even if they assume he's alive, for a value of alive. As I said I don't expect to be told how it works or why they want it but I do feel it'd be a good idea to tell you what your looking for. "Go here and retrieve this chalice that is made of beaten copper and plain in make" is a whole lot more helpful than "Go here and retrieve the relic." Especially if you show up to find there's hundreds of different chalices there. "Wow look at all those silver, gold and glass chalices glad they told me to retrieve the plain copper one . . . your chalice my lord."

[arikel.pv]

Maybe she doesn't know what it is herself. It is known to the general (obvious), to Balthazar (for he helped to construct the whole situation), and perhaps to no one else - if Ketheric has a hard form of paranoia (which he has all reasons for, I guess), why should he tell all his secrets to the subordinate he meets the first time? Foolish, indeed.
As for Balthazar, he is not alive - he is undead himself, apart from necromancy. Z'rell says it to MC almost plainly, smth like 'Death cannot silence him for long'.

[Senkoau]

Originally posted by arikel.pv:

Maybe she doesn't know what it is herself. It is known to the general (obvious), to Balthazar (for he helped to construct the whole situation), and perhaps to no one else - if Ketheric has a hard form of paranoia (which he has all reasons for, I guess), why should he tell all his secrets to the subordinate he meets the first time? Foolish, indeed.
As for Balthazar, he is not alive - he is undead himself, apart from necromancy. Z'rell says it to MC almost plainly, smth like 'Death cannot silence him for long'.

Yes but they've lost contact and if he only know's he's looking for a relic as well then it explains why he hasn't come back because he's just forlornly turning over items wondering if this is what he's looking for but afraid to ask in case he's punished for failure.

[Kafik]

If you click on the skull when you enter the tomb you get some background, Z'rell knows Balthazaar feels he is superior. So if he's turned on Ketherec better you die than her. If he is dead, then if you don't come back she can be relatively sure he's dead too.

[Sonic Titan]

Originally posted by Senkoau:

Yes but they've lost contact and if he only know's he's looking for a relic as well then it explains why he hasn't come back because he's just forlornly turning over items wondering if this is what he's looking for but afraid to ask in case he's punished for failure.

Balthazar knows what it is.

[Sentient_Toaster]

Z'rell even answers that if there's a choice between bringing back the relic or rescuing Balthazaar, the priority is bringing back the relic. She seems to have considered the possibility that you *won't* be able to make contact with him, which does make it silly if she doesn't provide any other means for you to determine what it is that you're supposed to retrieve.

The writing is pretty suspect here.

Imagine if, say, the mission where to instead bring back the Spear of Night. Retrieval of that would presumably interfere with any threat to the Nightsong, no? And that's not an entirely unreasonable quest even without an accurate explanation of precisely why.

[brendan_in_china]

Z'rell can't tell your character what the relic is, because the designers don't want you the player to know until the big reveal.

Player experiences > logical plot.

[arikel.pv]

Originally posted by Kafik:

If you click on the skull when you enter the tomb you get some background, Z'rell knows Balthazaar feels he is superior. So if he's turned on Ketherec better you die than her. If he is dead, then if you don't come back she can be relatively sure he's dead too.

I've got the message from the skull automatically on entering the tomb. It's Magical Mouth message from Balthazar, and it clearly points out that he envies each and any crumb of priority under the general. He knows that any other of Thorm's disciples feels the same, and he wants retrieving the relic become his triumph only. Another reason for not telling anyone else what kind of relic it is. Moreso, the necromancer could easily destroy the scrying eye himself just to that end.

Imagine if, say, the mission where to instead bring back the Spear of Night. Retrieval of that would presumably interfere with any threat to the Nightsong, no? And that's not an entirely unreasonable quest even without an accurate explanation of precisely why.

I guess if Shar provided a special spear which can kill an aasimar for her future justiciars (those who managed to complete her trials), then she'd probably would be able to produce anything similar for the one decent who dared to try and overthrow the worshipper who betrayed her. No, the key element is Nightsong herself.

[Senkoau]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Z'rell can't tell your character what the relic is, because the designers don't want you the player to know until the big reveal.

Player experiences > logical plot.

Which was my point they don't want to give away the big reveal so they use vague terms that cause logical issues with the plot. Especially since you can get other major plot points by breaking into Thorm's private quarters and sticking your hand in a hole in the wall.

[brendan_in_china]

So does it make sense for Kethric to confirm to Larroakan in a letter that soul caging is necromantic magic, whereas he remains vague with Z'rell?

I guess we can be generous and assume K chooses lieutenants who are intelligent and can draw conclusions on partial information.

[Steffan]

Originally posted by arikel.pv:

Actually what Z'rell needs from you is to reestablish the contact with necromancer, that's all. Perhaps she counted on Balthazar to decide your fate after helping (with obvious result). That's why she is so secretive about the relic. Also, she expects you to act as a real True Soul, that is, 'no questions, yessir!'
Fially, she is utterly loyal to the Absolte and the general, in that order. So you cannot expect her to say smth like 'bring me the only weapon with which the general might be destroyed', unless the Absolute whispers in her mind so.

I am not sure she is aware what the relic is. i think the only one who knows is Balthazar and Ketheric. It makes sense that such thing is not a public knowledge.

As for her relations with Balthazar, he is clearly a competitor. She does not care what happens to him as long as you learn what the relic is and get it to Ketheric. It is a message I got very early in the game so I disposed of him once his flesh golem died in a very tough fight with a certain fiendish entity.

All the absolute cultists are fighting with each other for the Absolute's and Ketheric's favour. In one of the dialogues with the traitor in the inn he clearly thinks you are betraying him just to steal his glory before the Absolute. He says something like "It's always the same: we, cultists fight for her favour" or something like that. How I got that dialogue is a bit spoilery and off-topic, though.

[Jaeleth]

Originally posted by Senkoau:

Disciple Zrell: "Go and retrieve this relic for us."
You: "As you command, what is the relic I am meant to retrieve?"
Disciple Zrell: "It is a relic that General Thorm desires that is all you need to know."
50 years later, you: "So do you think its that ornate mace? Or maybe this ancient tome . . . probably not this chalice. Although it might not be a magical relic."

I don't need to know why the leader of the army wants something but I do need to know what I'm meant to retrive if I'm going to you know actually retrieve it unless you want me to bring you every single item in the area you say to look in case its what you want. No wonder everyone failed so miserably at retrieving "the weapon" that's probably all they got told then spent their time grabbing every sword, bow, spear, mace and other weapon they could find.

The whole RPG world are idiots... All them lev 20 or upper fighters, knights, paladins, generals... commanding armies of thousands of lev 6 or upper soldiers and lev 20 battlemages and wizzards and clerics, with catapults, gunpowder bombs, heavy cavalry... not having a clue to what to do and waiting centuries for us, a handful, lowly lev 1-12 ""heroes"" to come to the rescue :DDDDDDDD

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Jaeleth:

Originally posted by Senkoau:

Disciple Zrell: "Go and retrieve this relic for us."
You: "As you command, what is the relic I am meant to retrieve?"
Disciple Zrell: "It is a relic that General Thorm desires that is all you need to know."
50 years later, you: "So do you think its that ornate mace? Or maybe this ancient tome . . . probably not this chalice. Although it might not be a magical relic."

I don't need to know why the leader of the army wants something but I do need to know what I'm meant to retrive if I'm going to you know actually retrieve it unless you want me to bring you every single item in the area you say to look in case its what you want. No wonder everyone failed so miserably at retrieving "the weapon" that's probably all they got told then spent their time grabbing every sword, bow, spear, mace and other weapon they could find.

The whole RPG world are idiots... All them lev 20 or upper fighters, knights, paladins, generals... commanding armies of thousands of lev 6 or upper soldiers and lev 20 battlemages and wizzards and clerics, with catapults, gunpowder bombs, heavy cavalry... not having a clue to what to do and waiting centuries for us, a handful, lowly lev 1-12 ""heroes"" to come to the rescue :DDDDDDDD

There are only two level 20 characters in the entire game, from what I can recall. And one of them is the final boss.

[Kaisha]

Agreed, the writing was pretty ridiculous at that point.