Dame Aylin is badly written character.

[Calandir]

So, it's been on my mind for long time, and I want to see what others feel like.
SPOILERS

The fact that Aylin can ruin your attempts at reasoning with Ketheric is insane. It feels like DM going over my seat, and beating me for trying to play my way.
Not to mention very hard skill checks, getting Ketheric to surrender and trying to reason with him was really good. I hoped there would be ending where he isn't dead, or is mending his ways.

But no. Aylin won't let you, even if you pass all skillchecks, even if you have good arguments, that Selune was ♥♥♥♥ to him. Nope. Reading his letters to Isobel and his wife is bittersweet.

It's just terrible writting power tripping from Larian. And taking away choices.

Edit: Not to mention she would go and kill surrendering, defenseless man. Not very ''Good'' sided.

PS: At least you can then let the mad Wizard get Aylin again, because that's what that murder-hobo deserves.

Thoughts?

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by Kfuk:

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Yeah, but it doesn't really fit very well for you to be saying all this otherwise

Saying what? There's one path to act 3, killing Ketherec. The dialog choices you make while playing the game flavor that choice. That's how RPGs work. Lots of things you have multiple ways to advance to an outcome but the main quests almost always have a single path, just a different experience getting there.

My point is just kinda that I do agree the persuasion conversation feels a lot more natural if you kill Nightsong (weirdly enough).

But I'm pretty sure you can get the option in really unnatural situations like entering the zone, never meeting Isobel or talking to Kethric, and then persuading him.

Not a huge deal just always awkward when your character suddenly knows things you never found out - I still remember the Witcher 1 for this.

[Calandir]

Originally posted by Kfuk:

Originally posted by Adam__86:

people who disagree are wrong

And blocked. For that extra burn.

It's not a burn. I just won't waste time on people who are changing subjects or accusing me of something. I disagreed with plenty other folk and didn't block them.

[Kafik]

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by Kfuk:

And blocked. For that extra burn.

It's not a burn. I just won't waste time on people who are changing subjects or accusing me of something. I disagreed with plenty other folk and didn't block them.

LMFAO then why do you feel the need to tell someone you blocked them if you're not looking for some small sense of smug self-satisfaction? That is the written version of sticking your fingers in your eye, closing your eyes and throwing a tantrum.

[Kafik]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Not a huge deal just always awkward when your character suddenly knows things you never found out - I still remember the Witcher 1 for this.

Agreed here.

[Calandir]

Originally posted by Kfuk:

Originally posted by Arnveld:

It's not a burn. I just won't waste time on people who are changing subjects or accusing me of something. I disagreed with plenty other folk and didn't block them.

LMFAO then why do you feel the need to tell someone you blocked them if you're not looking for some small sense of smug self-satisfaction? That is the written version of sticking your fingers in your eye, closing your eyes and throwing a tantrum.

Just letting them know it's pointless to type to me again because I won't see it. Don't know why you think it's ''smug'' or I need self-satisfaction.

All this post aims at, is to see what other people think, and talk with them. That's all. If someone is unable to talk about the topic, or coming at me with aggressive accusations, I block them, they're not interested in talking about the thread topic.

[Kafik]

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by Kfuk:

LMFAO then why do you feel the need to tell someone you blocked them if you're not looking for some small sense of smug self-satisfaction? That is the written version of sticking your fingers in your eye, closing your eyes and throwing a tantrum.

Just letting them know it's pointless to type to me again because I won't see it. Don't know why you think it's ''smug'' or I need self-satisfaction.

All this post aims at, is to see what other people think, and talk with them. That's all. If someone is unable to talk about the topic, or coming at me with aggressive accusations, I block them, they're not interested in talking about the thread topic.

No, you want them to know you don't care about them so much that you care that they know you don't care. Otherwise you would just ignore them, like a normal person does.

And LOL GOOD LORD you didn't want a discussion you wanted validation of your opinion. Read your own posts again.

[Calandir]

Originally posted by Kfuk:

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Just letting them know it's pointless to type to me again because I won't see it. Don't know why you think it's ''smug'' or I need self-satisfaction.

All this post aims at, is to see what other people think, and talk with them. That's all. If someone is unable to talk about the topic, or coming at me with aggressive accusations, I block them, they're not interested in talking about the thread topic.

No, you want them to know you don't care about them so much that you care that they know you don't care. Otherwise you would just ignore them, like a normal person does.

And LOL GOOD LORD you didn't want a discussion you wanted validation of your opinion. Read your own posts again.

Think what you want. I don't really much care. And slowly you're proving, you're changing the topic, as well as making false accusations against me. So to the ban list you go. Weak trolling.

[Kafik]

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Think what you want. I don't really much care. And slowly you're proving, you're changing the topic, as well as making false accusations against me. So to the ban list you go. Weak trolling.

Damn you just ruined my weekend.

I'd also like to point out the fact that you marked your OP with an answer proves my point; you weren't looking for a discussion, just validation. A true discussion has no final answer.

[Adam__86]

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Blocked and reported. Don't accuse me of that.

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by Kfuk:

Blocked and reported? Did you miss your snackie this morning or something? lmfao

Hate people who accuse others without any proof. People like that are trash.

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

The reasoning attempts with Ketheric is what's insane. Talk about bad writing, they are ridiculous. It's like they cut 90% of your interactions with him, but left that part in alone, which is nonsensical and disjointed from everything else.

You must not understand Ketheric character then.

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by igor140:

My guess is they considered making her a significantly more involved character (possibly even playable), but considering possible plot choices and outcomes, it would have been a lot of work for little payoff.

As for being "bad writing"... the OP's complaint seems to boil down to the fact that he's pissy that the DM (Larian) wrote an actual personality, goal, and objectives for an NPC, and he can't override them.

You get a fair amount of Aylin's backstory filled in if you read the various notes and books about the Nightsong, espeically the ones in Moonlight Towers... but I also know most GenZ people don't bother reading because TikTok didn't tell them to.

I don't like being teased a choice, and passing checks, wanting to reason with the ''Bad guy'' only for DM to beat me, telling me ''NO! PLAY LIKE I WANT! I MADE THIS COOL NPC, SHE IS THE SPOTLIGHT!''

The illusion of choice is disgusting. And shouldn't be in game praised so much for it's writing. But I'm slowly understanding, the reason why everybody loves the writing of this game, is because A: Sex. B: Camp. C: Friends.

Not about story and side-quests.

Hmmm

[Adam__86]

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by Kfuk:

No, you want them to know you don't care about them so much that you care that they know you don't care. Otherwise you would just ignore them, like a normal person does.

And LOL GOOD LORD you didn't want a discussion you wanted validation of your opinion. Read your own posts again.

Think what you want. I don't really much care. And slowly you're proving, you're changing the topic, as well as making false accusations against me. So to the ban list you go. Weak trolling.

We have eyes dude

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by Black Magic:

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

He almost was convinced, so they are certainly not alone in thinking it.

The entire sense I got from it was that he realized he'd messed up so bad that he genuinely believed there was no "redemption" for him, so he just gave up.

At one point he had just finished explaining why he would forever be Myrkul's loyal servant though. I don't think there was even another line between that and him starting to see the errors of his way.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by The_Dipl0mat:

Right, but why would she forgive him? Why would either. Kethric is not the man that Isobels father was, and he tortured Aylin for 100 years. He turned into a horrid undead monster. So, without Isobel or Aylin. What would you do? You're in that moment, you killed Aylin so he can actually die. What are you going to do to talk him down, when the hour is almost upon us

The only reason why Isobel can even meet Aylin is because Kethric. If she loves her that much, she can understand what big gift she got. And even if she wouldn't forgive him, still Kethric having more screen time, trying to mend his way is better plot.

Kethric already was showing understanding and he could mend his ways. And even if not. Even if you're dead set on having him dead. You can make his death more heroic, giving him a bit of bittersweetness. Also don't forget. He's Neutral Evil. Not Chaotic.

Except she met Aylin when Kethric was still the man Isobel knew, not the monster he is now. This is the climax, where the pieces fall into place. Hell, in the evil playthrough (if you don't kill her), he tadpoles Isobel just so she'll love him again (Emperor of Mankind needs to learn these fatherly skills).

Isobel has no need or want to reunite with Kethric, as that man is no longer her father. So, on the climax of everything, ready to lead armies into Baldurs Gate. Why would he actually back down instead of admitting he's gone too far and cant go back. The closest you get is deep beneath Moonrise towers. Hell, it'd actually make things worse as we do see that he'd rather die than repent (seen when he can be talked out, and says "nope!" and becomes an Avatar of Myrkul). If he backed out before the slimy zone, it'd most likely make things worse with Orin and Gortash once they realized he betrayed them.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Black Magic:

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

He almost was convinced, so they are certainly not alone in thinking it.

The entire sense I got from it was that he realized he'd messed up so bad that he genuinely believed there was no "redemption" for him, so he just gave up.

Yeah, first battle is basically "Theres no coming back from this" and then "There is no redemption for me" and then boom, Avatar 1

[Calandir]

Originally posted by The_Dipl0mat:

Originally posted by Arnveld:

The only reason why Isobel can even meet Aylin is because Kethric. If she loves her that much, she can understand what big gift she got. And even if she wouldn't forgive him, still Kethric having more screen time, trying to mend his way is better plot.

Kethric already was showing understanding and he could mend his ways. And even if not. Even if you're dead set on having him dead. You can make his death more heroic, giving him a bit of bittersweetness. Also don't forget. He's Neutral Evil. Not Chaotic.

Except she met Aylin when Kethric was still the man Isobel knew, not the monster he is now. This is the climax, where the pieces fall into place. Hell, in the evil playthrough (if you don't kill her), he tadpoles Isobel just so she'll love him again (Emperor of Mankind needs to learn these fatherly skills).

Isobel has no need or want to reunite with Kethric, as that man is no longer her father. So, on the climax of everything, ready to lead armies into Baldurs Gate. Why would he actually back down instead of admitting he's gone too far and cant go back. The closest you get is deep beneath Moonrise towers. Hell, it'd actually make things worse as we do see that he'd rather die than repent (seen when he can be talked out, and says "nope!" and becomes an Avatar of Myrkul). If he backed out before the slimy zone, it'd most likely make things worse with Orin and Gortash once they realized he betrayed them.

Which is why I dislike how he is written. There could have been done way, way more with, and having more options to have him doubt and maybe fix his way.
It feels like Kethric got short end of the stick. You can bargin with Gortash, why not with Kethric? He's not chaotic evil like Orin.

Orin should be one where it's dead set on killing them. I'm slowly starting to think, perhaps few writers were writing same characters/stories, and didn't talk to each other.

Aylin could have been done better, Kethric, Isobel. Instead it's your typical bad vs good guys. No moral back and forth, nothing. Something that should be reserved ONLY for Chaotic characters.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Arnveld:

Originally posted by The_Dipl0mat:

Except she met Aylin when Kethric was still the man Isobel knew, not the monster he is now. This is the climax, where the pieces fall into place. Hell, in the evil playthrough (if you don't kill her), he tadpoles Isobel just so she'll love him again (Emperor of Mankind needs to learn these fatherly skills).

Isobel has no need or want to reunite with Kethric, as that man is no longer her father. So, on the climax of everything, ready to lead armies into Baldurs Gate. Why would he actually back down instead of admitting he's gone too far and cant go back. The closest you get is deep beneath Moonrise towers. Hell, it'd actually make things worse as we do see that he'd rather die than repent (seen when he can be talked out, and says "nope!" and becomes an Avatar of Myrkul). If he backed out before the slimy zone, it'd most likely make things worse with Orin and Gortash once they realized he betrayed them.

Which is why I dislike how he is written. There could have been done way, way more with, and having more options to have him doubt and maybe fix his way.
It feels like Kethric got short end of the stick. You can bargin with Gortash, why not with Kethric? He's not chaotic evil like Orin.

Orin should be one where it's dead set on killing them. I'm slowly starting to think, perhaps few writers were writing same characters/stories, and didn't talk to each other.

Aylin could have been done better, Kethric, Isobel. Instead it's your typical bad vs good guys. No moral back and forth, nothing. Something that should be reserved ONLY for Chaotic characters.

So its nothing inherently bad with Aylin. You just don't like the writing in the game