[SPOILERS!] Is the emperor...

[Clyan]

really Balduran himself?
(Ive missed that secret quest for baldurians sword and helmet or whatever when i played it through the first time)

If so, why doesnt he tell you right away at act III when he gives you his background story? all he says is that he came from baldurs gate... like lol. its not wrong, but its quite the understatement. he also further explains that he eventually came back to the city and "had the luck" to meet Stelmane who let him do all the business in the shadows.
If he's baldurian he would have probably already known her. So why does he make it look like as if he was lucky to meet her?
Also isnt Baldurian a male human? What if you picked another gender and race? Doesn't that kinda mess it up as the emperor also tells you that his initial dream form was his former body?

It just feels a bit odd, especially the fact that Larian went out and made up a story for balduran - which i think is the only cheap thing about the story. Baldurian should stay a Legend, a mystical figure.

[Lod101]

Hmm hard to answer.
The most straightforward answer :no he is not, nor was he ever. Its just the parasite that evolved into a Mindflayer . The soul is gone and the body transformed beyond recognition.

[ChuckyDontCare]

Yes, he is, this also comes up if you encounter Ansur the Dragon under Wyrm Rock. Dishing out the "real story" in pieces is kind of his deal and something you can call him out on in dialogue.
The phony appearance I can live with, I think being locked into a single avatar might have given the whole thing away a little too early but there are surely other explanations as well.

Some of it doesn't really work for me either; like in some of the initial scenes after he transformed it was inferred that no one knew he was a Squidface, despite having what's pretty clearly a slimy tentacle hand. That just doesn't seem plausible.

[Clyan]

Originally posted by Lod101:

Hmm hard to answer.
The most straightforward answer :no he is not, nor was he ever. Its just the parasite that evolved into a Mindflayer . The soul is gone and the body transformed beyond recognition.

Yeah, but if you become a mindflayer yourself and die, Withers will find your soul and ressurect you and then tell you that he was wrong about "mindflayers not haveing souls". So this is a contradiction - the soul remains, the memories are absorbed by the parasite and therefor he totally still is Balduran.

But again... wasn't balduran a male human anyway?

[Clyan]

Originally posted by ChuckyDontCare:

I think being locked into a single avatar might have given the whole thing away a little too early but there are surely other explanations as well.

While I understand this argument, it still doesnt work for me. Lorewise this simply is wrong and it feels like Larian just went out to claim a big privilege and ruined it in the process.

[seeker1]

You marked your thread spoilers, so ...

The original Balduran lived about 400-500 years ago. from the year the game is set (1470 DR or so). There's various sources about when the city was founded. But the bottom line is when you arrive at the island in Tales of the Sword Coast, which is set around 1360 DR or so, it says Balduran's Wandering Eye shipwrecked there 300 years ago.

"Balduran" is apparently being tadpoled at Moonrise 300 years later in the 1300s DR. Weird timeline issues there. Larian fixes this timeline issue by doing a retcon on Balduran and saying he was an elf. So he could have lived centuries before tadpoling. But, here's the problem, Ed Greenwood created the character (and the FR setting) and says Balduran was human. Most of the original lore sources on him say Balduran was human.

Now Emperor could be LYING, but Ansur confirms what he says. Of course, Ansur is Larian's creation, too, no earlier lore about BG city says there was a bronze dragon by that name sleeping underneath.

He is lying about Stellmane, period. He of course portrays their relationship as a mutually beneficial arrangement. But pressure him on something else, and he will admit he psionically dominated and disabled her when she was no longer useful. Him being all "sad" and "lonely" over her murder is just BS for the player. He discarded her long ago.

Prior mindflayer lore says the tadpole consumes everything that was you and what is left is a mindflayer with your MEMORIES but not your personality or anything else. Is he Balduran even if we accept the retcon and he's not lying? No, he's a creature with Balduran's memories. And that's all. This is personally why in my headcanon why many times I've killed "Balduran" I think it's fine no one knows. I didn't really. I killed a manipulative scumbag, an alien creature, with his memories.

The REAL Balduran died centuries ago, let people continue to honor his monuments.

[Clyan]

Originally posted by seeker1:

You marked your thread spoilers, so ...

The original Balduran lived about 400-500 years ago. from the year the game is set (1470 DR or so). There's various sources about when the city was founded. But the bottom line is when you arrive at the island in Tales of the Sword Coast, which is set around 1360 DR or so, it says Balduran's Wandering Eye shipwrecked there 300 years ago.

"Balduran" is apparently being tadpoled at Moonrise 300 years later in the 1300s DR. Weird timeline issues there. Larian fixes this timeline issue by doing a retcon on Balduran and saying he was an elf. So he could have lived centuries before tadpoling. But, here's the problem, Ed Greenwood created the character (and the FR setting) and says Balduran was human. Most of the original lore sources on him say Balduran was human.

Now Emperor could be LYING, but Ansur confirms what he says. Of course, Ansur is Larian's creation, too, no earlier lore about BG city says there was a bronze dragon by that name sleeping underneath.

He is lying about Stellmane, period. He of course portrays their relationship as a mutually beneficial arrangement. But pressure him on something else, and he will admit he psionically dominated and disabled her when she was no longer useful. Him being all "sad" and "lonely" over her murder is just BS for the player. He discarded her long ago.

Prior mindflayer lore says the tadpole consumes everything that was you and what is left is a mindflayer with your MEMORIES but not your personality or anything else. Is he Balduran even if we accept the retcon and he's not lying? No, he's a creature with Balduran's memories. And that's all. This is personally why in my headcanon why many times I've killed "Balduran" I think it's fine no one knows. I didn't really. I killed a manipulative scumbag, an alien creature, with his memories.

The REAL Balduran died centuries ago, let people continue to honor his monuments.

Thanks.
So Balduran has always been human, but they made him an elf only to make his appearance in the game. That's exactly what i dont like about it. There was no need for Balduran in this game. The story works perfectly fine without him. The emperor really could have been a total normie walking the streets. Yet in their arrogance they had to somehow shoehorn him into it. Just why? That's just stupid.

Where does it state in the game that he was an elf btw? Because the forgotten realms fandom states hes been a human before transforming.

Also it still doesnt explain why you can make him ANY race or ANY gender.

Also illithids do have souls, stated by withers when he has to ressurect you if you die as an illithid. So that part doesnt add up either.

[seeker1]

In the Wyrmway, there's a mural of Ansur with Balduran, where on observation it tells you that Balduran appears to be an elf. Dunno, there's statues of him all over the city. The statues look very humanlike to me.

There are clear callbacks to Tales of the Sword Coast in this game, which I think they left for those paying attention. Again, in TotSC you find Balduran's shipwreck on that island; most of his crew have becomes werewolves; the game says Balduran's fate is unknown, you never find his body or his tomb (though some people THINK he may have become, or sided with, the werewolves.) Boom, that's the narrative space for the retcon.

... in the Emperor's Lair, one object he directs you to is his old butter fork. Seems kinda weird and random. Why is that particularly important to him? Well, in Tales of the Sword Coast, you find some of Balduran's old items in the shipwreck, one of whom is a dagger called Balduran's butter KNIFE. Also, the Sword of the Emperor has the same bonus against shapeshifters as the Sword of Balduran (in TotSC - NOT the sword you find in the wyrmway which is a giantslaying greatsword).

Only they know why they made this narrative choice, but on reflection I can see they clearly put callbacks that might clue in a player to their later 'reveal'.

The Dream Guardian form is just an illusion he uses for the player. He says so. So yes you can choose the race and gender and appearance of your Guardian. Only after a playthrough will you understand this is essentially you being asked to create your own illusion. It really doesn't mean anything, so I never spend time on it anymore. BTW, your companions will blurt out that when the Dream Guardians appear atop the brain when you fight the Emperor, they have been dreaming of these things, too.

He's been projecting illusionary forms into the minds of companions, also.

Withers says mindflayers don't have "apostolic" souls. This is key and might require you to look up some lore. Basically, mindflayers do have souls, but NOT the kinds of souls that go to the gods of Faerun in the Outer Planes like, well, Jergal, Shar, Mystra, etc., etc. They are alien souls that go to strange Great Old One type beings in the Far Realms like Ilsensense (sp?)

[Razorblade]

Originally posted by Clyan:

Also it still doesnt explain why you can make him ANY race or ANY gender.

Why can you transform your player character into any race and gender using Disguise Self? Magic, of course.

The Emperor isn't using their mortal appearance; just a fabricated/stolen one.

[Clyan]

Originally posted by Razorblade:

Originally posted by Clyan:

Also it still doesnt explain why you can make him ANY race or ANY gender.

Why can you transform your player character into any race and gender using Disguise Self? Magic, of course.

The Emperor isn't using their mortal appearance; just a fabricated/stolen one.

No he doesnt. He tells you at the start of Act III that this was his former body.

[seeker1]

That could be a lie. Rule 1: The Emperor lies.

It's almost certainly a lie, because companions with you when they see the four Dream Guardian opponents burst out of their cocoons, when the Emperor descends to fight you, blurt out "these things are real?" They have been dreaming of these things also (and the four have different genders/races/appearance/etc.) So he's been using at least 4 illusionary forms to appear to you AND your companions.

[Clyan]

Originally posted by seeker1:

That could be a lie. Rule 1: The Emperor lies.

It's almost certainly a lie, because companions with you when they see the four Dream Guardian opponents burst out of their cocoons, when the Emperor descends to fight you, blurt out "these things are real?" They have been dreaming of these things also (and the four have different genders/races/appearance/etc.) So he's been using at least 4 illusionary forms to appear to you AND your companions.

Okay, but it makes still no sense from a psychological standpoint. Why even mention that his appearance was him or not himself before the transformation? And what's the point lying about it anyway? The fact that he was or still is Balduran has nothing to do with the story itself. And sure, you probably can make it work out somehow if the Emperor is just lying about anything that doesnt add up, but its super cheap.

Also where does the game state that he was an Elf before?

[Razorblade]

Originally posted by Clyan:

No he doesnt. He tells you at the start of Act III that this was his former body.

The Emperor is still lying to the player well into Act 3; why do you think they're a reliable narrator when it comes to that point specifically?

Not to mention, he appears differently to every character differently in a multiplayer game. You could argue that's just "multiplayer jank," but quite frankly, it's as reliable a source of truth as the Emperor's words.

[seeker1]

Originally posted by Clyan:

Also where does the game state that he was an Elf before?

I know my posts can be a bit long sometimes but please read everything.

As I said earlier, in the Wyrmway, there is a mural of Balduran and Ansur you can view, and the narrator says as you are viewing it that Balduran appears to be an elf.

I view this as Larian's retcon. They have to do it to make their timeline work so that the Emperor can be Balduran. It contradicts what Ed Greenwood, the creator of the character, says about him.

[Clyan]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Originally posted by Clyan:

Also where does the game state that he was an Elf before?

I know my posts can be a bit long sometimes but please read everything.

As I said earlier, in the Wyrmway, there is a mural of Balduran and Ansur you can view, and the narrator says as you are viewing it that Balduran appears to be an elf.

I view this as Larian's retcon. They have to do it to make their timeline work so that the Emperor can be Balduran. It contradicts what Ed Greenwood, the creator of the character, says about him.

Yeah, sorry, i missed that somehow.

I think my dissatisfaction comes from the fact that Balduran had to have an appearance for no good reason. And at the cost of so many workarounds.

- Balduran was a human male, so the timeline doesnt add up as pointed out by you. So he either wasnt human, which is a contradiction in the established lore, or he somehow was able to enlengthen his lifespan (which we have to assume, we dont know).
- Another explanation could be that Balduran was an elf - which is implied only by this single game and there's no confirmation of this or any clear evidence for this to be true. (So we have to assume it, we dont know)
- The emperor doesnt mention his true former identity because... reasons.
- The emperor lies about Stelmane (we have to assume that, we dont know)
- The emperor lies about his dream form because... reasons (we again have to assume that, we dont know)
- The emperor lies about everything, probably to gain the player's trust and sympathy (we have to assume, we dont know)
- Ansur confirms that Balduran became an Illithid, But Ansur is the creation of Larian, so it seems this was just a necessary implementation to force brute this whole thing to work out.
- The emperor either is still Balduran or isnt. He tells you that he grew fond of his new body. So by those words we have to assume that he still is himself. But of course that could be another unecessary lie (we have to assume, we dont know)
- Withers explains that illithids have no soul, but then corrects himself about this statement when he has to ressurect a player that became an illithid - so the emperor REALLY is still Balduran, meaning that he keeps his identity hidden from you for again... reasons.
- Karlach becomes an illithid too (if you want) and she seems to remain herself too, but of course we could go out again on saying that this is just the parasite lying for... reasons.

It's just a mess and doesnt seem to be thought through well enough compared to the rest of the story which is really great.