SPOILER Isobel and Dame

[Windows 10 is Horrible.]

Haha reallt devs? Always in our face? What an absurd character arc love affair, but you had to go there. A High Half-Elf and Servant of Selune and an Aasimar, the Daughter of the Moonmaiden, Selune.
You know what people really want? Families, and that's what makes a great nation.

[Shirayuki Mizore]

Originally posted by Dork_Stalker_310:

Originally posted by Vixzian:

Fixing them wasn't the words used by the mod. The mod clearly stated their intentions for creating the mod and it had no nefarious ulterior motives based on their own explanation.

It's not the words used by mod, but it's the word used by a lot of people, who download it and promote it (a cursory look at the comment section for this mod at BasedMods website is advised, but not recommended).
I'm not against the mod's existance.
I'm not against people downloading it to their copies of the game.
I also don't think that it's something very egregious and disturbing, all in all it's a pretty innocent thing in itself, outside of the context surrounding it.
But I'm completely against pretending that a big chunk of the people who push for this "issue" aren't doing it due to their bigotry. I'm not against them helding their views in privacy, I'm even in favor of them showing their true colors publically, like the OP, instead of hiding behind vague generalities and fake civility.
This is why I have problems with the way you approach this topic. Because dancing around the big question - how come that a lot of people who have problem with this character also have problem with LGBT in general? - only lends plausable deniability bad faith actors.

It doesn't mater who created it. It doesn't matter who downloaded it and for what reasons. It doesn't matter where it was uploaded.

The only thing that matters is that mod removes [redacted] content.

Replacing [redacted] with regular content is prohibited
Replacing regular content with [redacted] content is fully allowed

[Moonlight Knight]

Originally posted by Shirayuki Mizore:

regular

Anyone else hear a high-pitched whistling noise?

[Moonlight Knight]

Originally posted by Lekker:

Originally posted by Dork_Stalker_310:

How come that a lot of people who have problem with this character also have problem with LGBT in general? - only lends plausable deniability bad faith actors.

Even more interesting question: Why all people who "have problems" with Aylin have no "problems" with Astarion?

Maybe it's not just gay... Maybe it has something else?

Somehow Astarion is not the gay icon of the game, althought he is clearly was meant to be... Why oh why?

Probably because you're not required to keep him, so the people who still played the game despite their issues with it but who hated Astarion in particular were allowed to get rid of him, refuse to let him tag along, or even kill him?

Which. You know. Is not 100% in favor of the case you're making.

[Callirgos]

I don't understand why Isobel was introducing us to the Aasimar. I don't recall ever meeting that character, and I met the Aasimar two or three times. Some of that scene should be rewritten.

Also making a big deal about same sex relationships has some real early 2000s black box theater vibes. I'm a big supporter of PDAs but the staging of the scene came off as inauthentic... maybe a bit too much Joss Whedon.

[Moonlight Knight]

Originally posted by Callirgos:

I don't understand why Isobel was introducing us to the Aasimar. I don't recall ever meeting that character, and I met the Aasimar two or three times. Some of that scene should be rewritten.

Also making a big deal about same sex relationships has some real early 2000s black box theater vibes. I'm a big supporter of PDAs but the staging of the scene came off as inauthentic... maybe a bit too much Joss Whedon.

Joss Whedon-style writing is definitely kind of an issue in general across a lot of media right now, and as much as I used to like Joss Whedon's actual shows because of how natural their conversations actually felt and how human it made the characters feel, oversaturation can make just about anything suck after long enough, and I don't think any of the people who were imitating his writing ever really understood what made it work. They seem to be trying to ape his sense of humor and not the naturalistic flow of dialogue he was known for, and as it's become more prevalent, characters feel like joke-dispensers first and people second.

[Dork_Stalker_310]

Originally posted by Lekker:

Even more interesting question: Why all people who "have problems" with Aylin have no "problems" with Astarion?

1) I doubt that they don't have problems with Astarion.
2) If they don't, then that's because Astarion is a sadistic psychopath, who kidnapped children, approves of grove slaughter and wants to kill thousands of his kin to accumulate power.
In other words, he isn't presented to players in a positive light and fits the bill as the "devious ♥♥♥♥".
Also this:

Originally posted by Moonlight Knight:

Probably because you're not required to keep him, so the people who still played the game despite their issues with it but who hated Astarion in particular were allowed to get rid of him, refuse to let him tag along, or even kill him?

Which. You know. Is not 100% in favor of the case you're making.

[Moonlight Knight]

Originally posted by Alex:

I don't care how you justify it. I don't care what ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ you try to sell me here to convince me you meant nothing by specifically putting the word white in your tentative to discredit that guy. You put a skin color into a bad light just because you think it's an acceptable form of racism or whatever stupid fantasies you people make up to justify this crap, that's racism and I will treat it as such. Like I said, be very careful what you say.

I don't think we have anything left to talk about, and I think you're the one who should be careful, because this is sounding a lot like going to bat for white nationalists.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Callirgos:

I don't understand why Isobel was introducing us to the Aasimar. I don't recall ever meeting that character, and I met the Aasimar two or three times. Some of that scene should be rewritten.

Depending on how you move through the Act, it's extremely easy to bypass meeting Isobel at all, but that doesn't mean that their relationship didn't exist. And up to that point, you only really know Dame Aylin as the Nightsong.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Dork_Stalker_310:

Originally posted by Lekker:

Even more interesting question: Why all people who "have problems" with Aylin have no "problems" with Astarion?

1) I doubt that they don't have problems with Astarion.
2) If they don't, then that's because Astarion is a sadistic psychopath, who kidnapped children, approves of grove slaughter and wants to kill thousands of his kin to accumulate power.
In other words, he isn't presented to players in a positive light and fits the bill as the "devious ♥♥♥♥".
Also this:

Originally posted by Moonlight Knight:

Probably because you're not required to keep him, so the people who still played the game despite their issues with it but who hated Astarion in particular were allowed to get rid of him, refuse to let him tag along, or even kill him?

Which. You know. Is not 100% in favor of the case you're making.

Not to also mention that Astarion doesn't really present any up front homosexual behavior beyond the way he presents himself. He doesn't kiss another man (unless its you I suppose), and he doesn't have an active relationship
Unless you count Cazador maybe...

[Moonlight Knight]

Originally posted by Lekker:

Aylin is not really presented in good light either. She grooms a young girl (statutory, clearly), is overconfident and shows what would have been considered toxic masculinty if she was a man.

Evidence for grooming?

[The_Dipl0mat]

Originally posted by Moonlight Knight:

Originally posted by Lekker:

Aylin is not really presented in good light either. She grooms a young girl (statutory, clearly), is overconfident and shows what would have been considered toxic masculinty if she was a man.

Evidence for grooming?

That's just, goofy as hell. She looks to be Sharts age, which means she's probably 40-60. Her confidence makes sense, what with paladins and demigods already being pretty confident. Combine it and you're dripping with it

And then the "toxic masculinity" thing doesn't make too much sense in my head. She asks for help, gets help, helps you, and makes a remark of "Leave us, I must partake of body and mind of my lover" which, I think is about as toxic as it gets technically? I do give leniency for the whole "I thought my lover dead for the past 100 years and now she's back exactly as I remembered her" situation

[Dork_Stalker_310]

Originally posted by Lekker:

Whatever did he do, he did it under direct control of his master. And he resisted as much as he could. Of course it marked him. Killing thousands of his kin was better than letting them out to murder bystanders. He is anti-hero trickster, yes, but not a vilain.

Again, he approves of slaughtering tieflings. Not just doesn't care to help them or doesn't mind if you do it, he APPROVES of killing innocent men, women and children.
He wants to take control of the Absolute for his own gain.
The sacrifice of other vampires isn't done by him due to any other reason than his own personal lust for power. If they were just people, he most likely would've done the same.
He generally approves of things that resolve in people getting hurt, especially ordinary nice people.
He absolutely is a villain. A charismatic, somewhat understandable and to a degree redeemable, but still, a villain.

The fact that you would compare all of this to being "overconfident and toxic" and think of it as a proportionate comparisson is asinine and, quite honestly, concerning.

[Recjawjind]

Originally posted by Lekker:

Originally posted by Moonlight Knight:

Evidence for grooming?

Indirect only, I give you that. I am making the lore run to check that suspition myself.

It says that Isobel was a young servant of Selune, impressionable and innocent, and then - boom, a daugher of the Goddes herself drops on her. It's like Zeus screwing around with mortal women - it's something generally frown upon because of massive difference in status and power.

They do actually address this power imbalance.

[votadc]

Originally posted by Kfuk:

Originally posted by votadc:

They aren't a family. The wannabe daughter of Selune (for what we see the guy that fight the shadow of Shar Is Halsin, not her) Isn't Isobel's mother but just the lover of Ketheric. She grants Ketheric's immortality, she insult you if you go there to rescue her, she lures Harpers in a kamikaze attack, she gets captured again on purpose, if you redeem Ketheric she will strike him to avoid to confess that they were on the same side. If you kill Nightsong the she will nuke Isobel (because she thinks that Isobel Is her property ) and Ketheric will confess everything and will be hostile because you killed his secret lover.

What game are you playing because that's certainly not what's happening in BG3.

Aylin can survive with Isobel dead and wouldn't care at all. Also even if Ketheric slain Isobel because Marcus she would slain gladly Isobel and get captured on purpose to grant again immortality to her boyfriend Ketheric.
Also you should try to slay Nightsong. Shadowheart would get a huge buff and gets +2 to her stats in act 3. Nightsong would nuke Isobel (because Isobel Is the chief of the resistance against Ketheric) just a second before die. Ketheric will confess his relationship with Aylin.

I never heard about a way to kill Aylin and keep Isobel alive.
Or a way to lift the Shadow curse using the mighty "daughter of Selune" instead of the humble druid without power. Proof that she Is an impostor or the daughter of Shar.
It Is possible to keep Isobel alive and imprison Aylin with the holy mage Lorroakan, in that case Aylin will leave the camp in fear of Aylin's revenge...still the best outcome since she Is alive and not anymore a slave.

[The_Dipl0mat]

Every time I see votadc it's always some insane fanfic