EVERYONE SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO USE SCROLLS.... FIX THE GAME!

[Sephiroth]

THIS IS RIDICULOUSLY STUPID ANYONE CAN USE SCROLLS... WTF

[id795078477]

... when your martial classes are better at maintaining concentration spells in equal circumstances than the magical classes - you know your combat system sucks ...

[Tenor Sounds]

Originally posted by id795078477:

... when your martial classes are better at maintaining concentration spells in equal circumstances than the magical classes - you know your combat system sucks ...

It makes sense to me that a martial class is better at withstanding pain than a squishy wizard. If the Wizard wants to be good at concentrating on spells while under fire, they should take the war-caster feat ;)

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Tenor Sounds:

Originally posted by id795078477:

... when your martial classes are better at maintaining concentration spells in equal circumstances than the magical classes - you know your combat system sucks ...

It makes sense to me that a martial class is better at withstanding pain than a squishy wizard. If the Wizard wants to be good at concentrating on spells while under fire, they should take the war-caster feat ;)

No, it doesn't make any sense to me. Concentration requires both:

-- Mental fortitude
a) to cast the spell, and ... well, concentrate on maintaining it, duh
b) to continue concentrating on it against mental disruptions (like an enemy casting charm or whatnot)

-- Physical fortitude to withstand potential interruptions caused by stuff affecting the body of the caster, i.e. pain.

Concentration is the sum of the two - and while physical fortitude is something where martial classes are normally better, there should never ever be a system that completely ignores the mental fortitude. It should be that martial classes with their untrained minds couldn't even grasp higher level spells + couldn't maintain the spell for long (say, a wizard can do it "till long rest", a fighter can only do it "10 turns").

Current system is a joke.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by JF:

Simple solution: don't use scrolls with non-caster characters.

Ya well if anyone can use scrolls then they should just make my mage and sorcerors as tanky and strong and skilled as fighters and barbarians....

OH WAIT/.... they didnt do that because that would be classes overlapping...

meaning there would be no point to classes then.... if everything overlapped....

OH YA... that is not supposed to happen....

because its fking stupid.

Yet its still going on in BG3.

[magritte]

Honestly, I agree, and think it's one of the ways that BG3 has tilted the balance away from spellcasters. They may have done it in order to compensate for the fact that they tilt the balance way toward spellcasters with the long rest (almost) anywhere, anytime rules.

[Tenor Sounds]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Current system is a joke.

Eh, I disagree. It's a CON save, so it makes sense fighters that can concentrate on spells are better at maintaining that concentration after taking damage than wizards.

If martials were able to learn counterspell or something, now that wouldn't make any sense.

Originally posted by magritte:

Honestly, I agree, and think it's one of the ways that BG3 has tilted the balance away from spellcasters. They may have done it in order to compensate for the fact that they tilt the balance way toward spellcasters with the long rest (almost) anywhere, anytime rules.

This feels like the most likely explanation, casters got a big buff in BG3 in versatility and usability. It makes sense to throw the martials a bone here and there.

[Sephiroth]

BG3 casters are weak compared to every BG game before. 1 and 2.

Even in BG3 they are still inferior to fighters etc.

I can easily kill bosses in a single turn with a fighter class type meanwhile the casters are not strong enough to kill the same bosses in 1 turn... hell not in multiple turns.

The only time they get that strong is late game when they can use multiple things in 1 turn. Much of them limited as well. Free cast for example, plus haste.

Casters in BG3 suck.

[seeker1]

Earlier editions had the only non magic using class able to use scrolls as being rogues, who could succeed on it with a decipher languages skill check. I think in 5E some DMs allow this, others don't, comes down to a rule interpretation issue.

At least I'll say this - in vanilla without Secret Scrolls mod, there are no scrolls for druid, bard, warlock, cleric, paladin, or ranger exclusive spells (in those latter 2 cases, a small number, but still) ... so still stuff non casters can't do.

If you want a best of both worlds character with a good mix of might and magic, the Eldritch Knight is there, but just IMHO the Vanguard (class mod) is better. There's also the Pathfinder Magus, but it's technically "alien" to 5E.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by seeker1:

Earlier editions had the only non magic using class able to use scrolls as being rogues, who could succeed on it with a decipher languages skill check. I think in 5E some DMs allow this, others don't, comes down to a rule interpretation issue.

3e also introduced the Use Magic Device skill which anyone could train in, though rogues were the only base martial class that had it on their class list, I believe.

Thief Rogues in 5e also get Use Magic Device as a subclass feature at 13th level which allows them to ignore any class, race or level requirements for magical items.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Tenor Sounds:

Originally posted by id795078477:

Current system is a joke.

Eh, I disagree. It's a CON save, so it makes sense fighters that can concentrate on spells are better at maintaining that concentration after taking damage than wizards.

It does not make sense that any mental aspect of spell-casting is bypassed. No amount of number-flashing on a single saving throw will convince me. If there is a system where martial classes have an upper hand over magical classes in a thing that's intended to be a specialty of those magical classes - it is wrong. It is a joke from both mechanical perspective and the lore perspective. I explained both above.

I'm not even starting about how casters are just a sad silly fart into a puddle when it comes to combat utility and damage numbers. Martials do it all, do it better and do it securely. But that's a different story. Maybe if you don't minmax, it's palatable, but if you know your way around builds - you'll find absolutely no reason to spec into magical classes. Zero, zilch, nope, nil, nada. At least in the current incarnation of BG3's campaign (and we have no other campaigns)

[Tenor Sounds]

Originally posted by Sephiroth:

BG3 casters are weak compared to every BG game before. 1 and 2.

Even in BG3 they are still inferior to fighters etc.

I can easily kill bosses in a single turn with a fighter class type meanwhile the casters are not strong enough to kill the same bosses in 1 turn... hell not in multiple turns.

The only time they get that strong is late game when they can use multiple things in 1 turn. Much of them limited as well. Free cast for example, plus haste.

Casters in BG3 suck.

Fighters are good at high-damage output, that's where they shine. Casters are good for utility, control, AOE, etc, but not necessarily damage. You could make some crazy broken builds and strategies in BG1 and 2 with casters for sure and that was fun (and honestly you can still do that in BG3), but I actually like it in BG3 where most of the classes feel like they can't have it all and need a balanced team to shine.

I don't have a problem with martial classes being better at... you know... fighting and killing stuff than Wizards.

Originally posted by id795078477:

It does not make sense that any mental aspect of spell-casting is bypassed.

[...]

Maybe if you don't minmax, it's palatable, but if you know your way around builds - you'll find absolutely no reason to spec into magical classes. Zero, zilch, nope, nil, nada.

I don't see it as the mental aspect being bypassed, just the physical one being given a heaver weight than usual. Agree to disagree on that, I suppose. I also believe that thinking Wizards are cool is a reason to play a caster over a fighter, not everything has to be about min-maxing damage and defense.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by Tenor Sounds:

Originally posted by Sephiroth:

BG3 casters are weak compared to every BG game before. 1 and 2.

Even in BG3 they are still inferior to fighters etc.

I can easily kill bosses in a single turn with a fighter class type meanwhile the casters are not strong enough to kill the same bosses in 1 turn... hell not in multiple turns.

The only time they get that strong is late game when they can use multiple things in 1 turn. Much of them limited as well. Free cast for example, plus haste.

Casters in BG3 suck.

Fighters are good at high-damage output, that's where they shine. Casters are good for utility, control, AOE, etc, but not necessarily damage. You could make some crazy broken builds and strategies in BG1 and 2 with casters for sure and that was fun (and honestly you can still do that in BG3), but I actually like it in BG3 where most of the classes feel like they can't have it all and need a balanced team to shine.

I don't have a problem with martial classes being better at... you know... fighting and killing stuff than Wizards.

Originally posted by id795078477:

It does not make sense that any mental aspect of spell-casting is bypassed.

[...]

Maybe if you don't minmax, it's palatable, but if you know your way around builds - you'll find absolutely no reason to spec into magical classes. Zero, zilch, nope, nil, nada.

I don't see it as the mental aspect being bypassed, just the physical one being given a heaver weight than usual. Agree to disagree on that, I suppose. I also believe that thinking Wizards are cool is a reason to play a caster over a fighter, not everything has to be about min-maxing damage and defense.

100% wrong.
um so based on your post than you must agree other classes should not be able to use scrolls. You know unless they specifically invest in a skill like use magic device. It should NOT be how it is now where anyone can just pick up a scroll and use it.

also
Previous Baldurs Gate games are a perfect example (which I see you know) about basically dealing high damage of all types, including impract/direct/over time,

Massive damage with many spells, along with time stops, improved alacrity,
It was NOT just about utility. It was never supposed to be like that either.
Disintegrate, polar ray, fireballs, chain lightning, etc. All examples, higher level fireballs with higher die numbers and later on spells like comet, dragons breath,

BG3 has just made a backwards joke of the title.

[Aldain]

The saddest thing about that is that it also makes Rogue and Fighter's caster subclasses worse because they normally have that niche of being able to use select scrolls on top of their limited spell slots.

[Sol]

NGL, this is my favorite Homebrew rule to add to all the games I DM. It honestly just makes players get more excited at getting new scrolls, and gives the martial classes some utility.

[Darksaint]

it would make sense to base the use of scrolls on level. Just as the game does for learning them.