How did the Chosen Trio..

[id795078477]

.. achieve anything prior to the events of the game?

There are at least 2 insane feats they pulled off which I fail to explain:

1. Stealing the Netheril crown from Mephestopheles. We're talking about a circle 8(?) archdevil ruler here.

2. Finding an elder brain and using the crown on it. We're talking about a free roaming elder brain here.

The chosen trio as per in-game is just so .. incompetent? Both per their combat power and their decision-making? To not bias any potential answers with my thoughts, putting those into spoiler below.

If we're talking decision-making, then:

1. Gortash: plain stupid. Inviting a known ridiculously powerful enemy to a 1:1 standoff is inexcusable for a ruler. It doesn't matter that there are those giant robots around - even if those kill the attackers after the attackers strike, what's the point if you're dead?

2. Orin: insane. Plotting within their own ranks while the very powerful foe is on the loose, knowing where that foe is and not doing anything about it is just insanity. I don't expect her to be of any use when it comes to tactics and planning.

3. Ketheric: negligent. Ah, Ketheric. Finally a capable head. But why, why does he just let the trio fly away when he knows the enemy is just behind the door? If the enemy got there after saving Aylin, then Ketheric would know that the approaching party is very powerful - after all, it got through Shar's most dangerous perils, killed Balthazar and dealt with the whole cult at Moonrise. Sure, he's powerful - but he's at his weakest. Why does he at least not ask others to stay and join "just in case" is beyond me.

Now if we're talking combat power, then there's even less excuses here. Sorry, but even on level 12 the chosen trio is simply trash. Even should they attack MC's party all at once with Ketheric at the end of Act 2, they would still overwhelmingly lose (even by HM standards). With the right build MC would probably defeat them 3 together in a fight should that occur in Act 1.

And individual combat power of each of them is just a joke. Yeah, Ketheric has his "boosted scary reaper" form, but that thing is immobile and only appeared as Myrkul's desperate attempt to not lose his chosen. Seeing how MC and his party tremble like leaves in the wind from a simple movement of the Elder Brain that produces earthquakes, seeing how the Elder Brain is sort of a last boss in the game - it's clear that the Trio could not stand a chance against it so I don't get how they enslaved it with the crown.

Of course, it maybe just bad writing and traditionally "a powerful character became a villain and suddenly turned blind, deaf and stupid" sort of trope, but if so - too much hang-wringing and plot armor needs to elevate this Trio to achieve the feats necessary to land them into their current positions.

[Dork_Stalker_310]

I don't remember how did the Chosen Three Stooges got the crown, but about Elder Brain - I think it's explained that Brain gave in on purpose, to lull them into a false sense of security, wait till they kill eachother off - or atleast weaken one another - and then strike.

[ChiefMal]

Your answers are given in a Dark Urge play through.

[Garath]

Because Larian no write good story, which makes them winning the story rich award pretty laughable. I am sure like all Larian games, the story will be fixed when they make the definitive edition like they had to do for all their previous games.

[Gorem]

This is a story where the less you think about it and the less brain cells devoted to understanding it you use, the more you will enjoy it

[seeker1]

Poke around Helsik's shop and Gortash's belongings and there is an answer for question 1.

As she tells you,

Infilitrating the Hells is her speciality, and she helped them steal the Crown.

I personally think the problem causing the infighting between Gortash and Orin is that one is Lawful Evil (like his god Bane) and the other is Chaotic Evil (like her god Bhaal). What starts to unravel their plan is infighting.

The ultimate problem with the Three's plan is basically explained by Withers aka Jergal: in the "pre epilogue":


It seems mindflayer souls don't go to their usual gods in the Outer Planes, but to stranger things in the Far Realms. The other gods are not happy about this. So they pissed off a lot of the other gods, including Mystra and Shar. That kind of doomed their plan.

[BakedBonsai]

seeker1 a écrit :

Poke around Helsik's shop and Gortash's belongings and there is an answer for question 1.

As she tells you,

Infilitrating the Hells is her speciality, and she helped them steal the Crown.

I personally think the problem causing the infighting between Gortash and Orin is that one is Lawful Evil (like his god Bane) and the other is Chaotic Evil (like her god Bhaal). What starts to unravel their plan is infighting.

The ultimate problem with the Three's plan is basically explained by Withers aka Jergal: in the "pre epilogue":


It seems mindflayer souls don't go to their usual gods in the Outer Planes, but to stranger things in the Far Realms. The other gods are not happy about this. So they pissed off a lot of the other gods, including Mystra and Shar. That kind of doomed their plan.

Hold up hold up hold up, when did they have souls? or do you mean the soul of who ever the poor sod was before.

[parent child bowl]

seeker1 a écrit :

I personally think the problem causing the infighting between Gortash and Orin is that one is Lawful Evil (like his god Bane) and the other is Chaotic Evil (like her god Bhaal). What starts to unravel their plan is infighting.

Stop bringing those stupid alignments into everything. They're the star signs of D&D and mean nothing.

Orin is an absolute nutjob that disposed ofGortash's BFF and the true Chosen of Bhaal.

[seeker1]

Orin is an absolute nutjob that disposed ofGortash's BFF and the true Chosen of Bhaal.

Fine, I'll explain it outside of alignment.


Orin wants blood everywhere. Death, murder, mayhem, more is better. Just like grandpa and Bhaal.
Gortash wants tyranny, power and control over everyone, exactly what you'd expect from a follower of Bane. He is not shy of killing people, but only as a means to power and domination. Not as a goal in itself. This is their key disagreement.

I do agree that a Dark Urge playthrough also exposes that Gortash is not happy what she did to the DU by usurping him.

BTW - Forgotten Realms source material says Bhaal is NE but I still say Orin acts CE.

As to the issue of whether mindflayers have souls, WIthers says no, BUT pay careful attention: he REALLY says they don't have "apostolic souls," which has a more specific meaning. Their souls don't go to Faerunian gods of the Outer Planes; this is what has Jergal, Shar, Mystra, and the rest pissed.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Gorem a écrit :

This is a story where the less you think about it and the less brain cells devoted to understanding it you use, the more you will enjoy it

And if you are a player who likes to devote brain cells to a game?:D
Then suck it up and abandon ship?:)

[ppaladin123]

The entire idea that you "turn into" a mindflayer is Larian's own thing. The tadpole eats your brain and takes over your corpse, you die, and your soul goes to the afterlife. The new mindflayer that comes from the tadpole has some alien soul that doesn't go before Kelemvor to be judged...that much was true. That is always how they worked.

I guess it makes sense the gods would be upset if the souls of their followers were being devoured/redirected but then again the Dead Three's plan doesn't actually make sense if that were true. Mind controlled worship by petitioners doesn't empower gods, mind flayers aren't petitioners so their worship doesn't empower the gods and their souls never go to the god's realm to strengthen them either. So the whole thing is quite odd.

The other thing about the plot/timeline that is off is moonrise tower...which was built a bit more than 100 years ago according its masons (who you can meet in hell/and who left extensive documentation of the building in their compound in the shadowlands) during Kethric Thorm's Selunite period (hence the name). But also the tower was there thousands of years ago so that Balduran could go there and get tadpoled. Also yes...they built the tower on top of a mindflayer colony....and at some point maybe 5 years prior Gortash and Dark urge go there to enslave the elder brain....for some reason they knew there was a mindflayer colony there. And then later they convince kethric thorm to join with myrkul through balthasar/in exchange for ressurecting his daughetr (I guess he was just sitting there in the shadowlands for 100 years moping?). On the other hand, the druid grove has memorials referencing the battle against Thorm that make it sound like he was from thousands of years ago.....I am guessing the story went through some rewrites because there are too different moonrise tower histories presented that don't add up.

[seeker1]

Yes there are other chronological problems. Particularly how the story of what happened to Balduran on the Isle of Balduran in the BG1 expansion Tales of the Sword Coast relates to events.

The fact is, in TotSC, you discover the shipwreck of the Wandering Eye on that Island. It's a bit hard to understand how

Balduran got off that island, got to Moonrise, and became the Emperor.

Yes, TotSC never says he died on the island, you just find the shipwreck and either dead crew or ones that have become werewolves. So I know Larian is grabbing on to the open ended possibility there. Still, how DID he escape the island and the shipwreck ... something Emperor never explains in his backstory?

I still think this could be another place Emperor is lying. That said, foreshadowing is all over the place. Here's the lyrics to the Song of Balduran, you hear it every time in Elf Song Tavern near Emperor' old hideout.

Verse 4]
A knave, a wizard, devil, gith
The odds are cast anew
And Baldur's fate now turns upon
The whims of fortune's few

[Izuzul]

Leave the thinking to the Netherbrain.

[ppaladin123]

seeker1 a écrit :

Yes there are other chronological problems. Particularly how the story of what happened to Balduran on the Isle of Balduran in the BG1 expansion Tales of the Sword Coast relates to events.

The fact is, in TotSC, you discover the shipwreck of the Wandering Eye on that Island. It's a bit hard to understand how

Balduran got off that island, got to Moonrise, and became the Emperor.

Yes, TotSC never says he died on the island, you just find the shipwreck and either dead crew or ones that have become werewolves. So I know Larian is grabbing on to the open ended possibility there. Still, how DID he escape the island and the shipwreck ... something Emperor never explains in his backstory?

I still think this could be another place Emperor is lying. That said, foreshadowing is all over the place. Here's the lyrics to the Song of Balduran, you hear it every time in Elf Song Tavern near Emperor' old hideout.

Verse 4]
A knave, a wizard, devil, gith
The odds are cast anew
And Baldur's fate now turns upon
The whims of fortune's few

The emperor's sword, which you can find in the hideout actually has a bonus against shapeshifters, which i suppose is a reference to that? Still doesn't make it make any sense though.

As for the song...the elf ghost that inhabits the tavern (hence the name) is known to sing prophetic songs. So possible this is not an old song but rather something she is conveying to the party.

[seeker1]

So, here's a timeline thing that also doesn't work.


Tales of the Sword Coast is set around 1368 DR, and when you find the shipwreck of the Wandering Eye, they tell you some of the former sailors turned werewolves have been there 300 years.

Also, Baldur's Gate, the city, looks to have been founded ~1000 DR, Sources vary but it seems to be around there.

Bottom line : Balduran looks to have lived around 1000 DR or so, and yet he says he was taken to Moonrise Towers in the late 1300s DR. Becoming a mindflayer makes you long lived but how did Balduran live 300 years to go there then?

I know I'm overthinking, It's just a game. Still, I do this with movies, too. Can't help it.

I do know Larian is definitely referencing Tales of the Sword Coast though and the canon they've created is referencing it. Besides the Sword of the Emperor having very similar properties to the Sword of Balduran in TotSC, you also find in the shipwreck of the Wandering Eye a dagger called Balduran's butter knife. What is one of the things Emperor shows you in his lair ... his butter fork.

[The gnomeman]

parent child bowl a écrit :

seeker1 a écrit :

I personally think the problem causing the infighting between Gortash and Orin is that one is Lawful Evil (like his god Bane) and the other is Chaotic Evil (like her god Bhaal). What starts to unravel their plan is infighting.

Stop bringing those stupid alignments into everything. They're the star signs of D&D and mean nothing.

Orin is an absolute nutjob that disposed ofGortash's BFF and the true Chosen of Bhaal.

yeah stupid alighnments making you make stupid character choices