Do Thieves get weaker at higher level.

[enricofermi2]

The main advantage of thief's is sneak attack. But later on characters start to get multiple attacks.

Seems like the single buff, from sneak attack would scale slower.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

It's a solid idea to pair any Rouge with a martial class to lvl 5 ranger and bard are 2 common choices, I've done fighter as well which can be fun enough.

Sneak attack itself gets a new D6 each 2 lvls past 1 so 3 2d6, 5 3d6 and so on at 11 6d6 on sneak, but theif with 2 bonus actions can also utilize items like potions, poisons and oils without feeling like much is lost. It's possible to not multi class but mutliclass is where most the power is at.

[larhtas]

Originally posted by KingOfFriedChicken:

It's a solid idea to pair any Rouge with a martial class to lvl 5 ranger ..

I totally confirm and valid that. It is really really strong.

@OP
You get potentially two attacks + eventually the ability to add you characteristic bonus to your off-hand damage. if you play two-weapon fighting (so 3 attacks in total (+1 if thief)).
Otherwise you can also do this with an archer. And get a +2 accuracy (attack) which is really strong too.

[Farsha]

Sneak attack scales with rogue lvl.
Check dnd 5e rogue mechanics.

You get only 1 sneak attack per turn in dnd 5e, so 2nd attack is not that great unless you have really good weapon with some special property.

[KingOfFriedChicken]

Originally posted by Farsha:

Sneak attack scales with rogue lvl.
Check dnd 5e rogue mechanics.

You get only 1 sneak attack per turn in dnd 5e, so 2nd attack is not that great unless you have really good weapon with some special property.

Well unless you miss with your first attack, although with it now as a reaction even I'm still not sure entirely how sneak attack applies itself in BG3... weird one it is.

But I think it can trigger on any attack as part of your main actions. It doesn't seem to trigger at all on bonus action attacks though that I have noticed.

[larhtas]

Originally posted by KingOfFriedChicken:

Originally posted by Farsha:

Sneak attack scales with rogue lvl.
Check dnd 5e rogue mechanics.

You get only 1 sneak attack per turn in dnd 5e, so 2nd attack is not that great unless you have really good weapon with some special property.

Well unless you miss with your first attack, although with it now as a reaction even I'm still not sure entirely how sneak attack applies itself in BG3... weird one it is.

But I think it can trigger on any attack as part of your main actions. It doesn't seem to trigger at all on bonus action attacks though that I have noticed.

You need to activate it in your sneak attack panel.
And then you can have it in bonus action and reaction.

[Zedrin]

The original, mono-class design philosophy is you can get advantage every turn thanks to cunning action - hide, boosting up your chance to hit. At level 5, ideally getting 3d6 extra damage makes up for not making 2 attacks. And by level 11, that's 6d6.

In BG3, thief can use the extra bonus action for an off hand attack as well, as additional assurance. Even if it's just a simple 1d6, if you missed with your earlier attack(s), it can be another chance to get that 6d6 off (assuming the enemy is adjacent to an ally, or you have advantage from another source). Most of your damage as a pure rogue comes from sneak attack.

Extra attack however goes a long way in consistently getting of your sneak attack. And BG3 also provides a lot of damage boosts, such as gloves that add on extra damage. If you're sticking with pure rogue, it should be more because you want things like Reliable Talent, rather than more damage. Meanwhile if you grab extra attack, you'd probably want something like sharpshooter to spike up your damage.

If you want some math, assuming a +4 bonus, a +2 1d6 weapon, and a 1d4 damage buff:
An attack by itself does on average 12.
Sneak attack meanwhile, at level 11 with 6d6, is an average of 21 damage. With 5 levels instead, that's 3d6, for 10.5 damage.

So, if you're a pure rogue, with one attack you're potentially dealing 33 damage in a single hit, before accuracy. If you *cannot* get sneak attack, your damage drops to 12 before accuracy.
If you're 5 levels in rogue and 5 in another martial, that's 22.5 + 12 (for a total of 34.5) over two attacks, before accuracy. While those look similar, the extra attack means you can more consistently get that sneak attack off, even if it takes up less of your damage total. If you can't get sneak, your damage is 24 before accuracy.

Extra attack overall also just scales better with bonus damage sources, since it can apply them multiple times.

[Sentient_Toaster]

High-level rogues do have some value, like Reliable Talent making them reliable in any skill they're proficient in (i.e. any roll of 1-9 gets bumped up to a 10). For instance... late game, it's possible to get Expertise in Persuasion, Intimidation and Deception. At that level, your proficiency bonus is +4, so Expertise means +8. With Reliable Talent, you're then getting a *minimum* of 18 + CHA modifier, probably +1d4 for Guidance, meaning that you're much less likely to whiff a moderately-difficult social check. This might mean less need to burn Inspiration on rerolls.

Sneak attacks are a lot weaker in BG3 than in tabletop, because it's a dedicated action in this game rather than a decision you can make after rolling a hit. To make that concrete -- a dual-wielding rogue might miss using his action to make a melee attack with one weapon, then use his bonus action to make an attack with the other hand and land a hit, and then add the sneak attack damage to that in tabletop. BG3, if you miss with the sneak attack you don't get a second bite at the apple even if you're dual-wielding. Likewise, there's no 'Ready' action in BG3, so you can't do the hasted-rogue strat (haste the rogue, who (1) takes the Ready action to take a melee attack on somebody else's turn, which can be a sneak attack; and (2) to use the Haste-granted action to make a sneak attack on his own turn, thus allowing the rogue to roll those sneak attack dice twice per round rather than once. Entirely legal for now, although I believe it's going to be disallowed in the updated PHB coming out next year).

For thief rogues specifically, though, two bonus actions is rather good. This can lead to absurd mobility (e.g. dash + dash, dash + jump), two shoves (hope you've got a strength elixir going), a potion + another bonus action, etc. A dual-wielding rogue can make two offhand attacks per turn. You get this benefit at level 3, though.

[RamboRusina]

Rogues are mostly adventuring class IMO(great for skill checks and pick pocketing all the scrolls and potions makes battles trivial indirectly). They overkill with their damage wasting it while their overall damage tends to be less than what other classes put out. If you want to turn them into more battle oriented class then multiclass with monk like others have said.

[eRe4s3r]

Rogues would be better in combat if Larian hadn't forgotten to give us throwable knives and daggers that return to hand. Or implemented the belt that does enable returning daggers (and all other thrown weapons).

Sounds weird but this is what gives rogues 3 normal distance (30ft) attacks that can trigger sneak attack in PnP. I was utterly baffled at this when I played on release too, because dagger,dagger,dagger doesn't exactly work if you got ZERO daggers after 1 round. We got a returning pike or whatever, but no good daggers. None of the legendary daggers return to hand after throwing. (And no, throwing from inventory is NOT THE SAME ;( )

But as it is missing current implementation and with the items you are better off going Ranger 5 and Rogue the rest and indeed, if you forgo 5 rogue levels your sneak attack will be really meh.

[larhtas]

Originally posted by eRe4s3r:

Rogues would be better in combat if Larian hadn't forgotten to give us throwable knives and daggers that return to hand. Or implemented the belt that does enable returning daggers (and all other thrown weapons).

Sounds weird but this is what gives rogues 3 normal distance (30ft) attacks that can trigger sneak attack in PnP. I was utterly baffled at this when I played on release too, because dagger,dagger,dagger doesn't exactly work if you got ZERO daggers after 1 round. We got a returning pike or whatever, but no good daggers. None of the legendary daggers return to hand after throwing.

But as it is missing current implementation and with the items you are better off going Ranger 5 and Rogue the rest and indeed, if you forgo 5 rogue levels your sneak attack will be really meh.

Yo, you already can have 3 attacks per turn with a rogue. By playing a thief.

[eRe4s3r]

Originally posted by larhtas:

Originally posted by eRe4s3r:

Rogues would be better in combat if Larian hadn't forgotten to give us throwable knives and daggers that return to hand. Or implemented the belt that does enable returning daggers (and all other thrown weapons).

Sounds weird but this is what gives rogues 3 normal distance (30ft) attacks that can trigger sneak attack in PnP. I was utterly baffled at this when I played on release too, because dagger,dagger,dagger doesn't exactly work if you got ZERO daggers after 1 round. We got a returning pike or whatever, but no good daggers. None of the legendary daggers return to hand after throwing.

But as it is missing current implementation and with the items you are better off going Ranger 5 and Rogue the rest and indeed, if you forgo 5 rogue levels your sneak attack will be really meh.

Yo, you already can have 3 attacks per turn with a rogue. By playing a thief.

Yeah, 3 melee attacks. But dagger throwing rogue gets 3 ranged attacks that use DEX for hit and damage, 2 more than he could get with a bow. Sure, far shorter range, but that's the trade-off. And if throw from inventory that's a "Throw" action which uses STR.

If you make a rogue that goes into melee the obviously counter to that would be "don't make a rogue then" because a DEX level 12 warrior is way better with 2 daggers ;p

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by eRe4s3r:

Originally posted by larhtas:

Yo, you already can have 3 attacks per turn with a rogue. By playing a thief.

Yeah, 3 melee attacks. But dagger throwing rogue gets 3 ranged attacks that use DEX for hit and damage, 2 more than he could get with a bow. Sure, far shorter range, but that's the trade-off. And if throw from inventory that's a "Throw" action which uses STR.

If you make a rogue that goes into melee the obviously counter to that would be "don't make a rogue then" because a DEX level 12 warrior is way better with 2 daggers ;p

And herein lies the weakness of the rule set. One issue being Dex as a stat basically overshadowing Str. And the other being multi-classes particularly fighter types. Very evident in BG3 especially where you end up with a party of multi-classes when all is said and done to compensate for weaknesses in the classes.

[Giganx]

Thief is weird. Levels 1-4 it's really strong because it has permanent advantage and the sneak attack modifier. Then at level 5+ it's weak because it doesn't get an extra attack.

So basically the way to play Thief is to spec Thief at levels 1-4. Then at level 5 respec all 5 levels into Gloomstalker Ranger for the extra attack to stay on-par with other physical classes, and then from 6-8 take Thief levels again to get your extra bonus action back. Then from there decide whether you want to go 8Gloomstalker/4thief for all 3 feats, or 9Gloomstalker/3thief or maybe 6Gloomstalker/4thief/2Fighter for Action Surge.

[Zaris]

Depends on your build and with what you want to compare it. Just an example of a plain fighter vs rogue with and without some buffs / BG3 specific items:

- fighter: 3 attacks * (2D6 greatsword + 2 magic + 5 str)= 3 * 14 = 42 dmg each round

- fighter buffed with haste, improved bless (underdark tower staff 2D4 bless), advantage melee ring (moonrise tower vendor), great weapon master feat, 2dmg poison ring
7 attacks * (2D6 greatsword + 2 magic + 5 str + 10 gwm + 2 poison) = 7 * 26 = 182 dmg each round with 100% hit chance

- rogue (thief subclass 2nd bonus action, hasted):
-- sneak attack: D4 dagger + 5 dex + 2 magic + 6d6 sneak = 30,5 dmg
-- normal attack: D4 dagger + 5 dex + 2 magic = 9,5
-- total: 1 sneak attack * 30,5 + 3 normal attacks * 9,5 = 59

To increase the dmg you can wear a helmet, cloak, subclass champion, 2 daggers which increase crit chance to ~30% with advantage easily 60% which pushes the rogues dmg to maybe 100 each turn.

Paladins, rangers, barbarians, monks are also in the 100-150 dmg each turn area with same build (minus monk) and Warlock build on Eldritch Blast can archive ~260 dmg for 4-5 rounds.

But there are also some overpowered mechanics on top of that. Just today i saw a video of a sword bard killing a 600hp boss in one turn with 4 flourish attacks dealing >600 dmg with double attacks, each hitting 60-80 crit dmg, 8 crits in total. Couldn't see which abilitiy can cause that massive crits in a row. On top of that he also used lightning charges (Larian homebew mechanic) which does ridiculous dmg bonus.

[larhtas]

I believe that the lack of multiclass requirements contributes to making the multiclass system in BG3 unbalanced. Multiclassing remains a potent option, but having requirements previously served as at least a minor countermeasure.