Stupid that non casters can use scrolls..

[Sephiroth]

That is all

[Aldain]

Also that Shove is a Bonus Action, especially with all the vertical map design.

[id795078477]

.. also that don't need short rests because you can just long rest after every battle
.. also that you can use any potions you want almost every battle
.. also that you can have as much gold as you need to but everything you want and then still have so much of it left you have to send it to camp
.. also that high-ground gives a +2 ranged attack which stacks with advantage
.. also that initiative is d4, not d20 meaning Alert guarantees the first turn
.. also that stuff like GMW and SS can still get to 80%+ hit-rate, often 95%
.. also that barring HM, haste gives a full action that stacks with extra attacks
.. also <insert whatever homebrew or abundance issue you feel strongly about>

[Orion Invictus]

Isn't that the whole point of scrolls, that anyone (who can read them) can use them? It's stupid that they couldn't use them before, IMO.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Isn't that the whole point of scrolls, that anyone (who can read them) can use them? It's stupid that they couldn't use them before, IMO.

Actually they're supposed to be non-cantrip backup options for Casters if they run out of slots.

Also a bonus for Half/Quarter casters being able to cast more than they normally would have access to.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Isn't that the whole point of scrolls, that anyone (who can read them) can use them? It's stupid that they couldn't use them before, IMO.

Actually they're supposed to be non-cantrip backup options for Casters if they run out of slots.

Also a bonus for Half/Quarter casters being able to cast more than they normally would have access to.

Sorry, I meant lore-wise. Aren't they basically just spells consigned to a piece of paper?

[Iron Reaper]

Your non casters have tavern brawler, smite, an extra action, and other things like that.. it’s fine

[ChuckyDontCare]

I kind of agree with this but there are so many grey areas where non-caster classes get spells of some kind. Even something like Misty Step, it is technically magic.

[Aldain]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by Aldain:

Actually they're supposed to be non-cantrip backup options for Casters if they run out of slots.

Also a bonus for Half/Quarter casters being able to cast more than they normally would have access to.

Sorry, I meant lore-wise. Aren't they basically just spells consigned to a piece of paper?

Not the biggest lore buff, but yeah, but you also need to be able to actually read and control the spell.

A scroll of Fireball would just be random scrawling on paper to a Barbarian or Monk, but a caster who has some magical knowledge/experience (at least specifically in Evocation as per PnP like an Eldritch Knight for example) could use it.

Scrolls aren't quite the same as magic items in that sense.

[id795078477]

Scrolls don't function a-la "read the words --> poof --> magic!". If that was the case, why anybody would even need scrolls? Just learn the incantation by heart (even a "dumb" barbarian can do it if his tribe-father cuffed those words into his brain from a young age), tell them and - magic!

The best illustration that magic doesn't work this way is - metamagic, in particular silent spell. In 3e (and I believe in 5e) it removes verbal component completely meaning the caster doesn't tell any words yet still produces a spell. So the scroll should contain the portion of magic sealed into it to fuel that spell - which also explains why it disappears after one use.

Could non-caster try using a scroll? I guess they could, but that would be like giving a loaded machine gun with a safety switch on "armed" to a 5 y.o. and see what happens. And .. a lot of thing can happen, ranging from absolutely nothing to that 5 y.o. blowing his own body parts away - or someone else's body parts.

[ppaladin123]

In tabletop 5e you can only use scrolls that are on your scroll list. So use by non-spell casters or even different kinda of spell casters is a rule change. In past editions you could create special scrolls that were called "spell-trigger items" that were usable by non-casters but they cost more to make. And there was a "use magic item" skill that let non-spell casters figure out/trick magic items like scrolls and use them anyway (rogues were very good at it).

There are a lot of seemingly small changes larian made that have huge balance implications like bonus action shove, stacking bonus actions, or the changes to tavern brawler.

[Space Dog]

I agree, scrolls being free for all is not good mechanically or thematically.

Mechanically scrolls are so powerful and abundant they contribute to making class abilities secondary. Scrolls make the game a lot easier when non-spellcasters have easy access to magic. The game needs meaningful ways to make it more challenging and this is one of them.

You can also dip multiclass one or more levels of Wizard for that ability, if you really want it. It's there, mechanically. You don't need to break the rules and just hand it out to everyone. With multiclassing, the flavor is there and balance is better.

For class fantasy, it's not cool that everyone is a Wizard. Want to fly, turn invisible or disintegrate a boss? Just use the bazillion scrolls from loot, or buy some at the closest general store. Wizard or Sorcerer not needed. It's a weird choice that caters to soloers, in a party based game.

I don't really care if they let anyone use scrolls on Easy mode or some future Lone Wolf mode, but the base game should play like D&D on this for reasons mentioned above.

[northernwater]

Non casters have a lower Spell Save DC.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by northernwater:

Non casters have a lower Spell Save DC.

.. which is absolutely not an issue because nobody uses offensive scrolls with non-casters anyways (and even then, items that set INT to <value> exist). It's for buffing the party - because voila - every character has 1 concentration slot. Yep, even martial classes who never learned any magic can "concentrate" on a spell. And what's even more of a joke - with equal circumstances, martial classes will make for a better choice to concentrate an important spell because they will have better AC and better concentration check as they tend to have higher CON.

[Space Dog]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Isn't that the whole point of scrolls, that anyone (who can read them) can use them? It's stupid that they couldn't use them before, IMO.

That's what potions, bombs and special arrows are for.

Spellcasting is something that only spellcasting classes do. You can multiclass into them.

And that's why multiclassing into a Wizard requires 13 Int in the real rules. Flavor and balance instead of just easy exploits.

The more I think about it the more it annoys me. Larian had all these D&D rules that create really cool dynamics and variety for different character builds, and chose to toss it all out the window and dumb things down. It would actually be cool to play a Fighter with 13 Int and one level of Wizard and use scrolls that other Fighters can't. It would be a character build, only now it's not.

[hermit0wl]

Originally posted by Aldain:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Sorry, I meant lore-wise. Aren't they basically just spells consigned to a piece of paper?

Not the biggest lore buff, but yeah, but you also need to be able to actually read and control the spell.

A scroll of Fireball would just be random scrawling on paper to a Barbarian or Monk, but a caster who has some magical knowledge/experience (at least specifically in Evocation as per PnP like an Eldritch Knight for example) could use it.

Scrolls aren't quite the same as magic items in that sense.

I think it would make more in-world sense if non-casters needed Arcana proficiency to use scrolls. But it also makes sense in a game to let everyone use them because fun.
Would be a good restriction for higher/custom difficulties though.