"Help" action is moronic

[Space Dog]

This is a good example why I can't play BG3 anymore and have to wait for a D&D Core Rules edition.

Honour mode. Owlbear fight. First one down.

Owlbear Mate downs Shadowheart. Tav "Helps" Shadowheart. Lae'zel attacks Owlbear.

Owlbear Mate downs Shadowheart. Tav "Helps" Shadowheart. Lae'zel attacks Owlbear.

Owlbear Mate downs Shadowheart. Tav "Helps" Shadowheart. Lae'zel attacks Owlbear.

Times 15 more. Until the enemy that has zero chance to win against this nonsense eventually dies.

Raphael even almost beat me when I fought fair, but then turns out I have the all-powerful Help action and a regenerating Helm with auto-revive, which he was completely helpless against. Talk about an anti-climax for a boss fight.

To all the people who plan to respond with "If you don't like it, don't use it". Don't. It's a core feature of combat. It has to be a part of the system in a sensible way. And letting your party members die is stupid from a tactical and narrative point of view.

How does stuff like this get through playtesting? Why does Larian add cheese like this to a system that didn't have it, and doesn't need it?

[Chivalrous Guy]

Originally posted by Space Dog:

This is a good example why I can't play BG3 anymore and have to wait for a D&D Core Rules edition.

Honour mode. Owlbear fight. First one down.

Owlbear Mate downs Shadowheart. Tav "Helps" Shadowheart. Lae'zel attacks Owlbear.

Owlbear Mate downs Shadowheart. Tav "Helps" Shadowheart. Lae'zel attacks Owlbear.

Owlbear Mate downs Shadowheart. Tav "Helps" Shadowheart. Lae'zel attacks Owlbear.

Times 15 more. Until the enemy that has zero chance to win against this nonsense eventually dies.

Raphael even almost beat me when I fought fair, but then turns out I have the all-powerful Help action and a regenerating Helm with auto-revive, which he was completely helpless against. Talk about an anti-climax for a boss fight.

To all the people who plan to respond with "If you don't like it, don't use it". Don't. It's a core feature of combat. It has to be a part of the system in a sensible way. And letting your party members die is stupid from a tactical and narrative point of view.

How does stuff like this get through playtesting? Why does Larian add cheese like this to a system that didn't have it, and doesn't need it?

lmao did the exact same thing with asterian being the target against the owlbears XD
fantastic diversion that guy lol

[Revenant]

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

You are spending 2 actions every turn to keep a person alive, cutting your total action economy in half, with just 1 downed person.

You're missing the point.

There isn't a prize for beating an enemy quickly vs. slowly. The normal reason for caring about action economy is that poor action economy generally makes fights harder. In this case, the "poor action economy" option makes the fight trivially easy -- the combination of the Help mechanic and predictable AI yields guaranteed, no-risk victory.

[jeffrey199]

The help action really stood out to me as OP when I downloaded a mod. 5E spells, in that mod you get “Spare the Dying” a cantrip, requires touch, an action and all it does is stabilize a downed player. (This does come from official sources).

Help is strictly better than this cantrip. I feel help should only be usable outside of combat. But it was a Larian decision so /shrug.

[Kittybass]

Scratch is good for helping downed party members.

[Sentient_Toaster]

Larian doesn't really document the rationale behind the rules deviations -- they don't even document what those deviations *are* in-game, like it should have been an obvious thing to to do include a documentation page for those familiar with the tabletop rules describing what significant changes they made and why.

[Soteria]

Originally posted by jeffrey199:

The help action really stood out to me as OP when I downloaded a mod. 5E spells, in that mod you get “Spare the Dying” a cantrip, requires touch, an action and all it does is stabilize a downed player. (This does come from official sources).

Help is strictly better than this cantrip. I feel help should only be usable outside of combat. But it was a Larian decision so /shrug.

The first time I used it, I expected it to only stabilize them, seeing it give them a free 1 HP is a huge change.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by jeffrey199:

The help action really stood out to me as OP when I downloaded a mod. 5E spells, in that mod you get “Spare the Dying” a cantrip, requires touch, an action and all it does is stabilize a downed player. (This does come from official sources).

Help is strictly better than this cantrip. I feel help should only be usable outside of combat. But it was a Larian decision so /shrug.

Spare the Dying has always been a bad cantrip regardless unless you're a Grave Domain cleric because a simple healer's kit for pennies does the exact same thing.

[lalala]

what would a DM do

[HunterAnubis]

personally I think character should be able to go down MAX 2 on normal mode 1 on tactician and 0 times on honour mode

[McGoodGreen]

Originally posted by lalala:

what would a DM do

Using the scenario in the OP? After maybe two rounds tops of the back and forth of "reviving" and "dying" I would personally make the Owl bear attack someone else.

Like maybe the person right next to the thing that keeps getting back up, if only because it is a wild animal and it should commit violence against anything within range.

[victorvnv]

Help should just stabilize them give them the 3 death saves to make sure they don’t bleed out.

It also makes clerics revive spell useless.

This spell should be a major reason to have a cleric so that they can revive downed players in combat , but instead Help does exactly that for no spell cost .

In my caste the downed character was my monk so not only I get up, but I could still do flurry of blows as bonus action once I get up to knock the owlbear prone lol

[Soteria]

Originally posted by victorvnv:

Help should just stabilize them give them the 3 death saves to make sure they don’t bleed out.

It also makes clerics revive spell useless.

This spell should be a major reason to have a cleric so that they can revive downed players in combat , but instead Help does exactly that for no spell cost .

That's not quite right; you don't need revivify to get up a player in that state--all you would need per RAW would be a healing potion. You only need revivify if they actually "die."

[Space Dog]

Originally posted by McGoodGreen:

Originally posted by lalala:

what would a DM do

Using the scenario in the OP? After maybe two rounds tops of the back and forth of "reviving" and "dying" I would personally make the Owl bear attack someone else.

Like maybe the person right next to the thing that keeps getting back up, if only because it is a wild animal and it should commit violence against anything within range.

Improving enemy AI in this situation doesn't help because the exploit comes from outnumbering the enemy and having more Actions, one of which can be used to neutralize the enemy's turns.

It's also possible the enemy misses. Help action doesn't miss.

[Sentient_Toaster]

BG3 also doesn't make you drop whatever you were holding when you're knocked unconscious, which if we're being strict with actions can be a problem (e.g. it's a 'free' object interaction to pick up a dropped shield, but a full action to actually equip it).

[Rabbit]

Originally posted by Space Dog:

"If you don't like it, don't use it". Don't. It's a core feature of combat. It has to be a part of the system in a sensible way. And letting your party members die is stupid from a tactical and narrative point of view.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Just don't use it. Or use it and shut up. Completely entitled nonsense.