Dark Urge and Shadowheart condemned to fate worse than death? *spoilers*

[Xanikk]

So I was reading the forgotten realm wiki and this page here makes it seem that Shadowheart (If she defies Shar and turns to Selune) and the Dark Urge (If he defies Bhaal) are basically condemned to having their soul destroyed for changing gods as they are now considered "False". Is this correct? So if you choose an evil god first and decide later you want to redeem yourself and choose a good god and do good choices you are condemned? Basically you will be punished in the afterlife for a good playthrough of these characters. This kinda sucks please say there is a way for them to be redeemed and be good!

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_False

Why is the system this way? Why do mortals have to be slaves to the deity they worship and they are not allowed to change their mind with personal growth and knowledge acquired over a life time? This seems arbitrary. Why be punished for this? There is no need. It discourages critical thinking and encourages being zealous despite any consequences in the characters life. Oh you chose this and this deity? Better stay that course or else you are going to hell and your soul destroyed in oblivion!

[Kafik]

Welcome to D&D. Why would you follow a god then betray them?

[Xanikk]

Originally posted by Mal:

Welcome to D&D. Why would you follow a god then betray them?

Because maybe you made a bad choice and want to change your mind? People make mistakes. Why should they not be allowed free agency and be allowed to choose another god?

This also puts a damper on any redemption arcs. If your character started out worshipping an evil god why ever try to redeem yourself? You may as well go do evil things get killed for it so you don't suffer the consequences in afterlife for being "good".

[Kafik]

Originally posted by Xanikk:

Originally posted by Mal:

Welcome to D&D. Why would you follow a god then betray them?

Because maybe you made a bad choice and want to change your mind? People make mistakes. Why should they not be allowed free agency and be allowed to choose another god?

This also puts a damper on any redemption arcs. If your character started out worshipping an evil god why ever try to redeem yourself? You may as well go do evil things get killed for it so you don't suffer the consequences in afterlife for being "good".

Yeah well evil gods aren't know for their altruism or their patience with traitors. That's the whole fun of making choices that have consequences. And, if you're bothered enough, in this world you have the potential to become powerful enough to fight those gods.

[Xanikk]

Originally posted by Mal:

Originally posted by Xanikk:

Because maybe you made a bad choice and want to change your mind? People make mistakes. Why should they not be allowed free agency and be allowed to choose another god?

This also puts a damper on any redemption arcs. If your character started out worshipping an evil god why ever try to redeem yourself? You may as well go do evil things get killed for it so you don't suffer the consequences in afterlife for being "good".

Yeah well evil gods aren't know for their altruism or their patience with traitors. That's the whole fun of making choices that have consequences. And, if you're bothered enough, in this world you have the potential to become powerful enough to fight those gods.

I just want a good ending for my characters, especially Shadowheart. Shadowheart deserves a good ending and after reading this it really sucks that she is basically condmend for being a victim of child abuse. Is it not possible Selune could rescue her?

[Kafik]

Originally posted by Xanikk:

Originally posted by Mal:

Yeah well evil gods aren't know for their altruism or their patience with traitors. That's the whole fun of making choices that have consequences. And, if you're bothered enough, in this world you have the potential to become powerful enough to fight those gods.

I just want a good ending for my characters, especially Shadowheart. Shadowheart deserves a good ending and after reading this it really sucks that she is basically condmend for being a victim of child abuse. Is it not possible Selune could rescue her?

Play through the game and make the choices you want with her. I think you will be happy. She has maybe the best arc for companions as far as a redemption story.

[Xanikk]

Originally posted by Mal:

Originally posted by Xanikk:

I just want a good ending for my characters, especially Shadowheart. Shadowheart deserves a good ending and after reading this it really sucks that she is basically condmend for being a victim of child abuse. Is it not possible Selune could rescue her?

Play through the game and make the choices you want with here. I think you will be happy. She has maybe the best arc for companions as far as a redemption story.

I already beat the game. It doesn't say anything about whether she is saved from an eternity of punishment in the afterlife. Neither does it for the Dark Urge for choosing to resist his urges.

[Kafik]

Ok except Shar let her go. The obvious assumption is Shar deemed Shadowheart worthless and was done with her.

[Wan Yao]

And Shar never lies...

[Xanikk]

Originally posted by Mal:

Ok except Shar let her go. The obvious assumption is Shar deemed Shadowheart worthless and was done with her.

Ok that's good to know. I guess that solves her problem in the afterlife. I wonder if the Dark Urge is still screwed if he decides to resist Bhaal? I did that and disowned my inheritance I just don't remember what Bhaal said about it specifically.

[Deleted *******]

Mate people change gods IRL all the time, depending on their knowledge and age.
Everything is alright with their souls.

[Xanikk]

Originally posted by KroniusBlack:

Mate people change gods IRL all the time, depending on their knowledge and age.
Everything is alright with their souls.

I'm not talking about IRL. I'm an athiest IRL. I'm only concerned with DnD universe in regards to my inquiry. Could another god save a "False" one's soul from it's former deity's vengeance? I really hope a good Dark Urge is not screwed.

[Wan Yao]

Originally posted by Mal:

Ok except Shar let her go. The obvious assumption is Shar deemed Shadowheart worthless and was done with her.

There is ONE LINE in the House of Grief where either Shar or Viconia (sorry I forget) says something to this effect. I take it as a throwaway threat, but tons of people seem to be taking it as literal canon.

I mean, let's assume Shar theoretically has the power to control a soul even after someone has rejected them. That's a plausible assumption. But Shadowheart becomes a follower of Selune and you're telling me that Selune has no say or power in this matter? Nah, not buying that.

[Mike Garrison]

It's canon in D&D and Forgotten Realms that people can change which gods they worship. I mean, just in this game Kethric has done it multiple times. Viconia didn't always worship Shar. Etc.

[Xanikk]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

It's canon in D&D and Forgotten Realms that people can change which gods they worship. I mean, just in this game Kethric has done it multiple times. Viconia didn't always worship Shar. Etc.

But are they always punished for it? The link I linked makes it seem like they are really screwed in the afterlife if they do. Is this link wrong information?

[SnowVix]

Originally posted by Xanikk:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_False

Why is the system this way? Why do mortals have to be slaves to the deity they worship and they are not allowed to change their mind with personal growth and knowledge acquired over a life time? This seems arbitrary. Why be punished for this? There is no need. It discourages critical thinking and encourages being zealous despite any consequences in the characters life. Oh you chose this and this deity? Better stay that course or else you are going to hell and your soul destroyed in oblivion!

From the link itself, head to Kelemvor's page and there's a clear example of how not all abandonment of a worshipped deity is automatically condemnation as the False. Kelemvor and Mystra's pre-apotheosis friend Adon was driven mad by the prior Death god Cyric's trickery which caused him to turn his back on Mystra and die either Faithless or False. However, due to the revelation that Adon's "Faithlessness" was caused by the direct intervention of another deity, he was allowed by Kelemvor to be retrieved from the Fugue Plane and the City of Judgement by Mystra.

Shadowheart: Her faith in Shar was not true, it was the result of manipulation and essentially brainwashing, and returning to Selûne does not thusly render her False. (Contrast with Ketheric Thorm who continually jumped to whichever deity would give him what he desired, going from Selûne to Shar to Myrkul, the latter of which is now a Vestige rather than a true deity, clearly marking him as a False)

Durge: The game explicitly states that without the Bhaalspawn part, the Durge is free from all tethers to the Lord of Murder. This would include any sort of judgement from Kelemvor of being False.

In summary, Kelemvor judging a soul as False is not just about whether they've ever changed deities, it's about a judgement of their reasons for doing so.