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Man, why are you so ANGRY? Seriously. I've done nothing but express my opinion respectfully and try to have a conversation in a respectful manner, and you apparently hate my guts simply because I like a video game.
And I'M aggressive?
I wish, but it didn't get enough mainstream attention, if it gets nominated tho I would vote for it for sure.
The pattern with Larian’s writers is that they seek to avoid antagonist character development at all costs. The strategy is to limit the number of scenes as much as possible. Remove them completely from Act 1. Show most of them only at the end of Act 2. Keep the scene quota to the bare minimum in Act 3.
They’re just very bad at thinking up antagonists, and are terrified of having to develop one over the course of 3 acts. It’s intellectually too much for them.
The people who think this game’s story and characterisations are great appear to be teenagers, IMO – eg, the Reddit pose etc. If you don’t read good books, then your only exposure to complex human character is through life. The corporate office is possibly the greatest source for character studies (especially villains), given the sheer variety of personalities, each pettily competing for kudos and cash and other shallow aspirations.
It has everything: back-stabbing, hypocrisy, deceit, manipulation, duplicity, envy, lust, and more.
There are all flavours of morons, shysters, schemers, sex-fiends and lunatics.
Cyberpunk did the best job of nailing the grit and sleaze of human nature, IMO. We’re actually quite a repellent species, and it’s nowhere more obvious than when you place us all in the one building and say ‘we’ve created some hierarchies, some are paid more than others and some are given special treatments over others’.
I mention it only because some seem to think, laughably, that this could be the best CRPG of the decade. TW3, in particular, eviscerates the BG3 narrative. Even D4 has better narrative beats.
I still think BG3 could win GOTY on the back of the same thing that won them critical success: grade A wokaine. Bags and bags and bags of it to keep the junkies addicted.
You bring up some good points here, and I 100% agree that some of the antagonists could have used a bit more narrative buildup. That's one of the few areas it fell flat for me.
I think that they were relying a lot on random lore to give some of the characters the needed background - Ketheric is a pretty good example of this. There's a LOT of background on him laying around, in the forms of letters, diaries, conversations with NPCs, etc. I was lucky enough I think to discover most of this and was pretty satisfied with how his story played out based on that, but I can easily see how he could have felt half-baked otherwise.
I do have to say though:
This part I disagree with. I'm pretty much the diametric opposite of a teenager at this point, and I've got a lot of life and plenty of good books under my belt. I was sufficiently engaged with the story and characters, for the most part, despite acknowledging that it could have been better in spots. I was invested and definitely got what I felt was an emotionally satisfying payoff at the end of the game.
That's about it.
1. Actual skill issue and I'm not even trolling as the game is very easy, on Tactician, NOT having to use everything. Being balanced for your skill level doesn't mean it's balanced for all players and only having 3 modes ensures it isn't.
2. Debateable, since post Act 1 the game tends to railroad you hard and obviously, but sure, whatever. Have at it.
3. This is actually dishonest. Act 3 was not optimized, seemingly at all, at release. Digital Foundry did a deep dive on it. If you had a ♥♥♥♥ PC, you might as well have bought a game with only 2 Acts. And technical mastery includes dealing with the BUGS.
Gale and Minthara have been bugged to Avernus and back since release. Game launched with, and still struggles to eliminate to this day, saving issues.
The only thing you mention is the hot bars and leveling, but there are WAY more systems than that. How about the UI for barter being different from trading being different from your inventory? How about having to ungroup so people don't walk into traps? How about personal inventory? How about needing to go through dialog menus every time you want to change party members? How about the AI seeing through walls when you steal? How about vendor attitudes for bartering making no sense? Have they added descriptions to the alch table yet?
I can go on.
4. I don't even know where to begin with this one. Even ♥♥♥♥ open world games make content they don't expect or need players to ever see. Corridor games are only one small portion of games out there.
5. Really? There is a simple adage I hold to. "A bad script can be made acceptable by good actors. A good script does not need actors to show it's strengths." BG3's story is actually garbage tier. It's a literal face lift of BG1's plot while at the same time contradicting itself with so many plot holes that it just makes no sense in the end. And speaking of endings, 'abrupt' is the nicest way I can describe them.
You can like or love a game to death and also know it has crippling flaws. For example, everyone knows Planescape: Torment had ♥♥♥♥ combat and no one pretends it wasn't ♥♥♥♥. Not sure when or where 'I like it' = 'IT MUST BE THE BEST THING EVER' ♥♥♥♥ is coming from.
Yeah, I’ve read this defence before. But the most difficult thing to do is to develop a character through their character – dialogue, scenes, etc. The poor man’s character development is done via ‘lore’ or notes, books, etc as it relieves the writers of the burden of creating dramatic narrative. This is by far more intellectually challenging, as you must ‘become’ the characters, method-acting style.
I’m in the twilight of my thirties, not necessarily ancient, especially by today’s ‘40s are the new 30s’ standards, but yeah, we’ll have to agree to disagree here.
It would be interesting though if you provided some examples of the ‘emotional payoff’.
Because narratively-speaking, I got more emotional payoff from seeing the neighbour’s cat stalking an insect in the grass, only to ultimately miss it and be left in a state of wide-eyed alarm.
Really?
All I got was oneliners from companions and then I killed myself.
Truly an achievement, I never expected the writing would get so bad as to make me click that "kill yourself" option so fast.
I agree with you here 100% - it wouldn't have been my first choice either, and one can certainly debate its merits, but being as how it's how the whole thing played out for me, I think it's why I felt more satisfied than most.
I've got about a decade on ya, but yes, agreed - and respectfully agreeing to disagree is what it is - or should be - all about :)
I mean that does sound like high drama to be sure, and it's a tough act to follow lol.
Seriously though, one example - and granted, I know these things play out differently for everyone - is how Wyll and Karlach's stories intertwined. I was heavily invested in not only K's backstory, but also in the moral choices that Wyll had to make in regards to his contract and his father. I chose the "I'll give up my soul to save my father" option, and at the end of the game, when K was forced back to Avernus, Wyll accompanied her and the whole thing ended with them charging into battle with oncoming waves of demons in slow-motion to an uncertain future. I'll be the first to admit that Shakespeare it ain't, but from the perspective of a video game that aspires to something more than "go here, kill this," I found it pretty satisfying.
That's just one example, of course. Another would be Shadowheart's arc from being an extremely unlikable pain in the ass, through her gradual acceptance of who she was meant to be via gradual revelations over the course of the story, culminating in the redemptive events of the House of Grief/parents thing.
I dunno, maybe I'm just easily amused. Like I said earlier though, I do consider myself fairly well-read, and for what it is, this hits all the right notes for me. I got the investment and payoff I wanted out of it. At the same time, I can see how others didn't, and I'm certainly not gonna tell them they're wrong for doing so. Different strokes and all that.
Cool.
I suppose the only rare exception is if a talented comedian can show up capable of entertaining without offending... but again, that is still just a framing mechanism.
You've got it all backwards. Being offensive doesn't take effort. Being inoffensive takes effort. A lot of effort. And it often isn't worth said effort.
It is a pleasant ideal, but it is just that: an ideal.
It isn't compatible with reality, where people have strong opinions about mutually exclusive things and inevitably come into conflict over them.
Discussing things out rationally might work when it is a matter of what is correct versus what is incorrect, objectively speaking... but when it is a matter of personal goals, intentions and preferences... there is no way. It just can't happen with any significant consistency.
It is sadly unavoidable. Trying to keep oneself clean while living in a sewer is a futile endeavour. And human society is, within the bounds of this metaphor, a particularly unmanageable sewer.
Saying nothing that anyone anywhere could take as offensive can be hard, but that's not the question at hand - this isn't about some excessive political correctness. The situation is writing additional words that contribute nothing except to be insulting.
Likewise this could explain why you have the opinion that nobody wants to have a civil discussion - yes, when you respond to a civil discussion with insults, not many people respond with further civil discussion. However, this is only saying something about you, not about others.
Ok fair enough, at least you qualified it – I don’t think anyone’s enjoyment of BG3’s writing is a reflection of anything grander than ‘taste’.
Clearly many do like the companions.
Personally, I find the BG3 characters gimmicky and shallow. Their plot is bigger than their brains, in a sense, and their narrative arc is guided along by the plot-strings, rather than – IMO – anything dramatically convincing.
Just my two cents. But for contrast – Judy from Cyberpunk, great character with tons of scenes and narrative, with very little in the way of plot-crutches. Panam – a mistake… Silverhand – tons of investment that’s hit and miss, but far better than BG3’s effort. The key is the slightness of the plot-crutches. Eg – you can easily high-level summarise the character plots of Cyperpunk in just a few lines. The rest is carried by writerly effort.
BG3 – virtually none of the character plots can be quickly summarised, as without the big plot distractions, the interest starts to dwindle quite fast…
Anyway, no right or wrong with this topic, so I’m happy to leave it at that.
Sorry, not being dismissive.
Just don't understand how you can enjoy the ending when it's clearly unfinished, full of gaping plot holes, railroads you into becoming a mindflayer (or blowing up Gale) etc. etc.
Standards are different nowadays I guess.