Spellcasting in BG3 During Combat is Mostly a Waste

[RustyWheel]

I'm not one of those gamers who sits there and crunches numbers to try and achieve maximum DPS or alpha damage, but the difference between the per use value of weapon and ranged action points versus spellcasting in BG3 is just too hard to ignore.

In my first play through by about level 9 with the exception of quests that benefited having a specific character along who happened to be a spellcaster I had mostly abandoned spellcasting because in most cases it just wasn't worth wasting action points on them.

By the end of that playthrough about the only spell I was using was Spiritual Guardian on Shadowheart who with her 24 AC, I could plop in the middle of a fight and have her do damage just by walking around, especially in fights with the undead wielding the blinding mace.

It was even worse in my second playthrough when I started adding multi-classing into the mix and could start cranking up my ranged and melee damage.

For my third play through I am not even bothering with spellcasters and did things like making Gayle an Eldrich Knight/Wizard mix and Shadowheart a monk/cleric mix to keep in the spirit of their canon roles, but mostly just use as melee.

There are two reasons why spellcasting in BG3 is gimped in the game, the action point cost and saving throws. For example, a third level spell slot fireball will do 8d6 against each target, worst case it will do 4 damage against a target if it makes its saving throw, best case 48.

Without using scrolls an 8th level mage can cast that spell 6 times before needing a long rest. Contrast that with an 8 level Bard with a DEX focus and gear available relatively early in the game to enhance both the attack and damage of ranged attacks. Ranged damage will be 11-19 per attack with a 95% chance to hit most targets even when in melee range.

Using Slashing Flourish (Ranged) that is 4 attacks per round at a minimum of 11 damage. With 5 bardic charges that can be refreshed with a short rest and the additional short rest that comes with being a bard that is 20 charges per long rest.

Add in the Bloodlust potion, multi-class with action surge, a haste potion, multi-target arrows, explosive and other AOE arrows, 10 tadpoles with the cull the weak option and there is just no comparison.

Similar damage and mitigation can be done with a Battle master fighter/monk rouge mix with powers that reset with a short rest.

One thing that would help spellcasting is that all buffs/de-buffs spells and cantrips should cost bonus action, not an action. As a Bard wasting a full action point using Vicious Mockery to do 2d4 damage and an attack de-buff that can be negated with a save is a waste of the action compared to the damage the Bard can do with that same action point.

Another thing that would help spellcasters is that if a target makes its saving throw against a single target with a no damage spell the caster should get the action point back or at the very least an additional bonus action.

Spells like Hunters Mark and Hex when the target dies should allow the spell to be transferred to another target without costing a bonus action. Past level 5 I almost never use these spells because most of the time multiple enemies are getting killed in a turn and can use the bonus to deal damage to another target.

Of course the other side of the coin is that weapon attacks in the game are mostly over powered, but even there the game is way out of balance given how so many rare, legendary weapons and feats favor great weapon and don't encourage the use of many of the 1d4, 1d6 and 1d8 weapons.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Haha, no. A single spell can often lay waste to an entire encounter.

Magic is OP.

[kakita tatsumaru]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Haha, no. A single spell can often lay waste to an entire encounter.

Magic is OP.

Magic is OP for utility only.
Magic in this game is seriously nerfed compared to DD5:
-Enemy CA is reduced (indirect boost to weapon damage). It's even worst with feats which exchange -5 to hit for +10 damages because you can still be at 95% accuracy.
-Enemy health is up (Indirect nerf to AOE damage spells clearing abilities)
-Lots of very strong items (boost weapon damage way more than spells)
-Magic control spells effects are litteraly halved because opponents saves twice: once during the cast, once at THE START of their turn.

My next game will use almost no spells (minus haste) and abuse from OP archery.

[Blurp]

give sorc a haste pot and he can throw 4 fireballs in a single turn, 8d6 aoe damage x4
the only limiting thing is a spellslots which gets better as lvls go up

[Carynara]

CC, man. Makes or breaks this game. Idc how much Fireball crits for as long as I can confuse, fear, silence, or hold a horde of enemies.

[Blurp]

Originally posted by kakita tatsumaru:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Haha, no. A single spell can often lay waste to an entire encounter.

Magic is OP.

Magic is OP for utility only.

storm cleric + sorc builds would like a word with you

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by kakita tatsumaru:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Haha, no. A single spell can often lay waste to an entire encounter.

Magic is OP.

Magic is OP for utility only.
Magic in this game is seriously nerfed compared to DD5:
-Enemy CA is reduced (indirect boost to weapon damage). It's even worst with feats which exchange -5 to hit for +10 damages because you can still be at 95% accuracy.
-Enemy health is up (Indirect nerf to AOE damage spells clearing abilities)
-Lots of very strong items (boost weapon damage way more than spells)
-Magic control spells effects are litteraly halved because opponents saves twice: once during the cast, once at THE START of their turn.

My next game will use almost no spells (minus haste) and abuse from OP archery.

It's not because the AI is bad.

If you exploit bad AI you can get them to suicide on your AoE spells, but you can also just lock them down completely with CC, and in the end just Disintegrate bosses.

[Six]

Funny, I thought triple fire balls with red dragon blood was good.

[Quillithe]

Yes, Fireball as a single target spell is not very good.

Magic is not better at average single target damage per round.

However, it provides absolutely crippling AoE, AoE disables, etc.

A level 5 wizard can do an average of 24 damage to each of multiple enemies with a fireball - let's say...4. Comparing that to your level 8 bard hitting each enemy once for a maximum of 19 damage makes the bard look pretty bad by comparison, doesn't it?

Never mind that haste gives the bard a tiny bit more damage and just lets the wizard cast a whole second fireball.

[Notch]

Originally posted by RustyWheel:

I'm not one of those gamers who sits there and crunches numbers to try and achieve maximum DPS or alpha damage, but the difference between the per use value of weapon and ranged action points versus spellcasting in BG3 is just too hard to ignore.

In my first play through by about level 9 with the exception of quests that benefited having a specific character along who happened to be a spellcaster I had mostly abandoned spellcasting because in most cases it just wasn't worth wasting action points on them.

By the end of that playthrough about the only spell I was using was Spiritual Guardian on Shadowheart who with her 24 AC, I could plop in the middle of a fight and have her do damage just by walking around, especially in fights with the undead wielding the blinding mace.

It was even worse in my second playthrough when I started adding multi-classing into the mix and could start cranking up my ranged and melee damage.

For my third play through I am not even bothering with spellcasters and did things like making Gayle an Eldrich Knight/Wizard mix and Shadowheart a monk/cleric mix to keep in the spirit of their canon roles, but mostly just use as melee.

There are two reasons why spellcasting in BG3 is gimped in the game, the action point cost and saving throws. For example, a third level spell slot fireball will do 8d6 against each target, worst case it will do 4 damage against a target if it makes its saving throw, best case 48.

Without using scrolls an 8th level mage can cast that spell 6 times before needing a long rest. Contrast that with an 8 level Bard with a DEX focus and gear available relatively early in the game to enhance both the attack and damage of ranged attacks. Ranged damage will be 11-19 per attack with a 95% chance to hit most targets even when in melee range.

Using Slashing Flourish (Ranged) that is 4 attacks per round at a minimum of 11 damage. With 5 bardic charges that can be refreshed with a short rest and the additional short rest that comes with being a bard that is 20 charges per long rest.

Add in the Bloodlust potion, multi-class with action surge, a haste potion, multi-target arrows, explosive and other AOE arrows, 10 tadpoles with the cull the weak option and there is just no comparison.

Similar damage and mitigation can be done with a Battle master fighter/monk rouge mix with powers that reset with a short rest.

One thing that would help spellcasting is that all buffs/de-buffs spells and cantrips should cost bonus action, not an action. As a Bard wasting a full action point using Vicious Mockery to do 2d4 damage and an attack de-buff that can be negated with a save is a waste of the action compared to the damage the Bard can do with that same action point.

Another thing that would help spellcasters is that if a target makes its saving throw against a single target with a no damage spell the caster should get the action point back or at the very least an additional bonus action.

Spells like Hunters Mark and Hex when the target dies should allow the spell to be transferred to another target without costing a bonus action. Past level 5 I almost never use these spells because most of the time multiple enemies are getting killed in a turn and can use the bonus to deal damage to another target.

Of course the other side of the coin is that weapon attacks in the game are mostly over powered, but even there the game is way out of balance given how so many rare, legendary weapons and feats favor great weapon and don't encourage the use of many of the 1d4, 1d6 and 1d8 weapons.

All that typing to be completely wrong.

[Kafik]

I've used spells heavily in my playthroughs, they're very effective. Damage too, especially when you're facing a lot of enemies. It's just a matter of personal preference but magic is just as viable and physical attacks for the overall game.

[DontMisunderstand]

Spellcasters are not meant for DPS. They're meant for utility. That's the point. Why would you pick a fighter if you weren't going to be better at combat than someone with a more versatile character class?

The actual problem with the game is that character class only really matters for spellcasters, because of how many spell scrolls the game throws at you. Every character is a better spellcaster than your spellcasters are. You're drowning in spells. Usually higher level spells than your casters can cast in the first place. And definitely way more spells than they have spell slots. Why would you pick a Wizard when a Fighter can also cast Fly, Haste, Slow, Fireball, and Call Lightning?

[Kafik]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Spellcasters are not meant for DPS. They're meant for utility. That's the point. Why would you pick a fighter if you weren't going to be better at combat than someone with a more versatile character class?

The actual problem with the game is that character class only really matters for spellcasters, because of how many spell scrolls the game throws at you. Every character is a better spellcaster than your spellcasters are. You're drowning in spells. Usually higher level spells than your casters can cast in the first place. And definitely way more spells than they have spell slots. Why would you pick a Wizard when a Fighter can also cast Fly, Haste, Slow, Fireball, and Call Lightning?

Except for fireball all of those are concentration spells. Your fighter getting hit a lot can have the concentration broken. However the playstyle is still a personal preference.

[RustyWheel]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Yes, Fireball as a single target spell is not very good.

Magic is not better at average single target damage per round.

However, it provides absolutely crippling AoE, AoE disables, etc.

A level 5 wizard can do an average of 24 damage to each of multiple enemies with a fireball - let's say...4. Comparing that to your level 8 bard hitting each enemy once for a maximum of 19 damage makes the bard look pretty bad by comparison, doesn't it?

Never mind that haste gives the bard a tiny bit more damage and just lets the wizard cast a whole second fireball.

I would not waste a fireball on a single target. My point was that the damage from a fireball between damage dice rolls and saving throws can vary wildly between the targets while the bard damage is far more consistent and repeatable over a longer period of time.

[Six]

Sorc > Wiz for damage, Wiz for utility

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Mal:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Spellcasters are not meant for DPS. They're meant for utility. That's the point. Why would you pick a fighter if you weren't going to be better at combat than someone with a more versatile character class?

The actual problem with the game is that character class only really matters for spellcasters, because of how many spell scrolls the game throws at you. Every character is a better spellcaster than your spellcasters are. You're drowning in spells. Usually higher level spells than your casters can cast in the first place. And definitely way more spells than they have spell slots. Why would you pick a Wizard when a Fighter can also cast Fly, Haste, Slow, Fireball, and Call Lightning?

Except for fireball all of those are concentration spells. Your fighter getting hit a lot can have the concentration broken. However the playstyle is still a personal preference.

Getting hit once can break concentration. The difference is, the Fighter can reliably have higher AC, higher CON, and built-in damage reduction effects to reduce the likelihood of breaking concentration. The game also prioritizes easy targets with attacks, typically. So the fighter is less likely to get attacked anyway.

The point wasn't the specific spells. The point was that pretty much every spell has a scroll, and scrolls are over-abundant.