Still waiting for Minthara fix

[UnholyDentist]

Larian has fixed the dialogues for the current content available, but supporting her still only yields a friendship at the cost of losing 30% content. I wanted real romance and ways to turn her on the right path from the Absolute, and to save her along with the tieflings and the druid groove. That's how Minthara should be for me.

I tried knocking her out prior to druid groove raid, but she just bugs out and stays in the same room in the Temple. The Moonrise Tower scene then plays without her. The journal will state "killed", yet she is just standing there with 1 HP.

For a better contrast, I am fine using in-game methods (like knocking her out) to make her do or not do things, but I don't want to exploit or use bugs, or mods to make it work.

She is NOT fixed, she is NOT done.

Larian, please provide proper Minthara fix. Thank you.

[Aliceskysareblue]

what op is asking for is to basically remove consequences for your actions, in the end, taking minthera is a choice, Larian stating that taking the villiainous path will end up with you being a loner, after all who wants to side with someone that slaughters the inocent.

it should be noted you dont have to side with the absolute after rescuing here, yes you will loose content but... thats a choice you made. sometimes playing a gaming is more about role playing not the meta.

[UnholyDentist]

Origineel geplaatst door Aliceskysareblue:

what op is asking for is to basically remove consequences for your actions, in the end, taking minthera is a choice, Larian stating that taking the villiainous path will end up with you being a loner, after all who wants to side with someone that slaughters the inocent.

it should be noted you dont have to side with the absolute after rescuing here, yes you will loose content but... thats a choice you made. sometimes playing a gaming is more about role playing not the meta.

What I am asking for is to provide a worthwhile content for evil playthrough. Right now we lose a huge portion of content for little gain, and even that is quite disappointing. Especially considering the developer said they "fixed" it (not).

[Batman]

Just flesh out a truly evil campaign. That's what I really want for my second playthrough. Just give me options to turn good people bad, recruit the baddies and rip and tear my way through with a fleshed out story and rewarding feel.

[Argonaut]

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

If Shadowheart can commit betrayal on Shar, then why can't Minthara do the same with Lolth/Absolute at some point in the story? Especially since their situation/relationship with their said god is similar. Either forced or fake in some way.

Shadowheart can't commit betrayal on Shar. She should have lost all of her powers the second she didn't kill the nightsong and no Selune can't just immediately step in and take over as her patron. It doesn't actually work that way in universe and it would take time and rituals and worship for her to receive a new patron which would be at the patrons discresion and in general FR gods do not look kindly on oathbreakers of any kind. Shar is also known to be possessive and hunt down those that break their oath to her so Shadowheart should also be poised to he hunted down by Sharrans for the rest of her life. In Shadowhearts case her being a shar worshipper is also the product of kidnap and indoctrination from a young age. In Minthara's case it would seem it's entirely because of the tadpole.

In terms to evil/good playthroughs in general, Larian seems to be dead set on making the starting point/prologue identical for every origin and custom characters. So then Minthara would have to start at the same point as an origin, which wouldn't work with her story. The other criteria is, only infected NPCs can become origin. So the ones that aren't infected at some point would need a reason to become as such.

It would work with her story completely. You could meet her in the same fashion as astarion while she is reeling from the realization that she broke her oath to Lolth and needs to seek immediate repentance with her God. Lolth is also exactly the type of God that would send her on an impossible mission to get revenge on the absolute for infringing on her property because she has done this before and it's perfectly in line with how she toys with the drow in general. This would also be a more faithful portrayal of a Lolth-sworn drow and flesh out the world more. It would add weight and significance to Minthara being both a drow and an oathbreaker as opposed to those being insignifcant tags to an insignifcant token. Change Minthara to a wood elf and tell me how does it impact her portrayal in the story? Change her to a ranger and tell me how it impacts her portrayal in the story.

It doesn't because the way she is written it makes no use of her being a drow or being an oath breaker paladin to make her a more complex character or attach significance to those features

That they didn't is a sign of lack of thought and poor worksmanship. There was no reason for her to be a companion and not be available from the start. Larian also didn't seem to have a problem with Minsc/Jaheira/Halsin in this regard so why just Minthara? Because they don't want to let you be evil outside of their Narrative structure.

This is again what we call railroading in tabletop.

Origineel geplaatst door Aliceskysareblue:

what op is asking for is to basically remove consequences for your actions, in the end, taking minthera is a choice, Larian stating that taking the villiainous path will end up with you being a loner, after all who wants to side with someone that slaughters the inocent.

it should be noted you dont have to side with the absolute after rescuing here, yes you will loose content but... thats a choice you made. sometimes playing a gaming is more about role playing not the meta.

What consequence for your action? Losing a single companion?

It has no overall impact on the story and you can be brutally evil and still kill Minthara just as how you can be a paragon of justice and leave her knocked out. Getting access to more companions is a ♥♥♥♥ choice because it removes the onus from the player and offers them less choices and less fun which is the tell tale sign of an incompetent or inexperienced DM. I mean this in a literal sense btw. Knocking out Minthara does not break Paladin oaths and neither does letting Halsin die. It's even possible to let the tieflings get kicked out and the rite of thorns to happen without breaking an oath of devotion.

Also villainy isn't black and white and you can be brutally evil without being a total loner. Larian writing it that way is a failing on their imagination and writing skills not an axiom of reality.

[Aliceskysareblue]

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

Origineel geplaatst door Aliceskysareblue:

what op is asking for is to basically remove consequences for your actions, in the end, taking minthera is a choice, Larian stating that taking the villiainous path will end up with you being a loner, after all who wants to side with someone that slaughters the inocent.

it should be noted you dont have to side with the absolute after rescuing here, yes you will loose content but... thats a choice you made. sometimes playing a gaming is more about role playing not the meta.

What I am asking for is to provide a worthwhile content for evil playthrough. Right now we loose a huge portion of content for little gain, and even that is quite disappointing. Especially considering the developer said they "fixed" it (not).

thing is, you can still be villianous and not slaughter the grove, the game doesnt really have an alignment system or set path, its more about choices and concequences. for instance by slaughter the grove your going to find that people are not going to want to be around you.
turning on your allies is not going to win people on your side.

this is a larian game, its like this in dos2, were you can play undead and side with the villian, but your probably going to loose everyone save a undead ally.

[UnholyDentist]

Origineel geplaatst door Argonaut:

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

If Shadowheart can commit betrayal on Shar, then why can't Minthara do the same with Lolth/Absolute at some point in the story? Especially since their situation/relationship with their said god is similar. Either forced or fake in some way.

Shadowheart can't commit betrayal on Shar. She should have lost all of her powers the second she didn't kill the nightsong and no Selune can't just immediately step in and take over as her patron. It doesn't actually work that way in universe and it would take time and rituals and worship for her to receive a new patron which would be at the patrons discresion and in general FR gods do not look kindly on oathbreakers of any kind. Shar is also known to be possessive and hunt down those that break their oath to her so Shadowheart should also be poised to he hunted down by Sharrans for the rest of her life. In Shadowhearts case her being a shar worshipper is also the product of kidnap and indoctrination from a young age. In Minthara's case it would seem it's entirely because of the tadpole.

In terms to evil/good playthroughs in general, Larian seems to be dead set on making the starting point/prologue identical for every origin and custom characters. So then Minthara would have to start at the same point as an origin, which wouldn't work with her story. The other criteria is, only infected NPCs can become origin. So the ones that aren't infected at some point would need a reason to become as such.

It would work with her story completely. You could meet her in the same fashion as astarion while she is reeling from the realization that she broke her oath to Lolth and needs to seem immediate repentance with her God. Lolth is also exactly the type of God that would send her on an impossible mission to get revenge on the absolute for infringing on her property because she has done this before and it's perfectly in line with how she toys with the drow in general.

That they didn't is a sign of lack of thought and poor worksmanship. There was no reason for her to be a companion and not be available from the start. Larian also didn't seem to have a problem with Minsc/Jaheira/Halsin in this regard so why just Minthara? Because they don't want to let you be evil outside of their Narrative structure.

This is again what we call railroading in tabletop.

It seemed to be an easy switch for Shadowheart, so if it happens to her, could happen to Minthara. Shar has similar personality to Lolth. If the story gave more trouble for the god betrayal/switch, then so be it. Actually I would welcome it for more challenge and lore depth.

Evil playthorugh is disappointing as much as Minthara's so called "fix". Sure, we can just let the content go, but then why bother with anything at all? This is like telling Darth Sidius should've soloed the whole Jedi order and the High Republic because he chose to be evil.

[UnholyDentist]

Origineel geplaatst door Aliceskysareblue:

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

What I am asking for is to provide a worthwhile content for evil playthrough. Right now we loose a huge portion of content for little gain, and even that is quite disappointing. Especially considering the developer said they "fixed" it (not).

thing is, you can still be villianous and not slaughter the grove, the game doesnt really have an alignment system or set path, its more about choices and concequences. for instance by slaughter the grove your going to find that people are not going to want to be around you.
turning on your allies is not going to win people on your side.

this is a larian game, its like this in dos2, were you can play undead and side with the villian, but your probably going to loose everyone save a undead ally.

So you chose to save the druid groove and the tieflings as an evil? How does that work in logic? You save them for an evil plan in act 3 perhaps? Or you are a good person in act 1, but become evil afterwards?

I don't think being evil = solo only.

[Aliceskysareblue]

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

Origineel geplaatst door Argonaut:

Shadowheart can't commit betrayal on Shar. She should have lost all of her powers the second she didn't kill the nightsong and no Selune can't just immediately step in and take over as her patron. It doesn't actually work that way in universe and it would take time and rituals and worship for her to receive a new patron which would be at the patrons discresion and in general FR gods do not look kindly on oathbreakers of any kind. Shar is also known to be possessive and hunt down those that break their oath to her so Shadowheart should also be poised to he hunted down by Sharrans for the rest of her life. In Shadowhearts case her being a shar worshipper is also the product of kidnap and indoctrination from a young age. In Minthara's case it would seem it's entirely because of the tadpole.


It would work with her story completely. You could meet her in the same fashion as astarion while she is reeling from the realization that she broke her oath to Lolth and needs to seem immediate repentance with her God. Lolth is also exactly the type of God that would send her on an impossible mission to get revenge on the absolute for infringing on her property because she has done this before and it's perfectly in line with how she toys with the drow in general.

That they didn't is a sign of lack of thought and poor worksmanship. There was no reason for her to be a companion and not be available from the start. Larian also didn't seem to have a problem with Minsc/Jaheira/Halsin in this regard so why just Minthara? Because they don't want to let you be evil outside of their Narrative structure.

This is again what we call railroading in tabletop.

It seemed to be an easy switch for Shadowheart, so if it happens to her, could happen to Minthara. Shar has similar personality to Lolth. If the story gave more trouble for the god betrayal/switch, then so be it. Actually I would welcome it for more challenge and lore depth.

Evil playthorugh is disappointing as much as Minthara's so called "fix". Sure, we can just let the content go, but then why bother with anything at all? This is like telling Darth Sidius should've soloed the whole Jedi order and the High Republic because he chose to be evil.

Look your entitled to your feelings, but I persionally liked how minthera is, she is cold, pragmatic blood thirsty and ruthless, but she also has a softer side when you romance her. Im hapopy they did fixed her dialogue bug. she works well with, shadowheart, astrion and lae'zel. gale is going to be miserable lol.

I do wish we had another charecter would have been nice if we had edwin or khorgan bloodaxe.

[UnholyDentist]

Origineel geplaatst door Aliceskysareblue:

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

It seemed to be an easy switch for Shadowheart, so if it happens to her, could happen to Minthara. Shar has similar personality to Lolth. If the story gave more trouble for the god betrayal/switch, then so be it. Actually I would welcome it for more challenge and lore depth.

Evil playthorugh is disappointing as much as Minthara's so called "fix". Sure, we can just let the content go, but then why bother with anything at all? This is like telling Darth Sidius should've soloed the whole Jedi order and the High Republic because he chose to be evil.

Look your entitled to your feelings, but I persionally liked how minthera is, she is cold, pragmatic blood thirsty and ruthless, but she also has a softer side when you romance her. Im hapopy they did fixed her dialogue bug. she works well with, shadowheart, astrion and lae'zel. gale is going to be miserable lol.

I do wish we had another charecter would have been nice if we had edwin or khorgan bloodaxe.

Not so entitled, Minthara's personlaity can stay as is, but she doesn't have to end up being traded for the druid groove and tieflings. Also, choosing her should offer more content provided in place of the part that is lost.

[Prinny𖤐Wesker]

Origineel geplaatst door in:

Yes. I mean Minthara is even literally controlled by Absolute and later detests all the things she was forced to do. So there is absolutely no reason why we should not be able to detect that/free her while saving grove naturally. Well, beyond poor writing.

Thats the bit that makes her being an evil-only recruit so weird to me. She even questions why you slaughtered the grove.

[ZombieLover84]

Just be thankful you can even recruit her. Not every character needs (including the ones recruit-able) to have some of redemption arc. Some evil character's just remain evil, as they should.

And the Druid Grove choice is probably the single best in the game, because it sets the tone of the overall game having many different outcomes the way you interact with the people in the game.

Still, not every single outcome can be programmed. The imagination is endless, but a game like this isn't for endless imagination, it's to progress through a story. At some point, you got to realize if you could knock out everyone and still progress it would be silly.

[UnholyDentist]

Origineel geplaatst door ZombieLover84:

Just be thankful you can even recruit her. Not every character needs (including the ones recruit-able) to have some of redemption arc. Some evil character's just remain evil, as they should.

And the Druid Grove choice is probably the single best in the game, because it sets the tone of the overall game having many different outcomes the way you interact with the people in the game.

Still, not every single outcome can be programmed. The imagination is endless, but a game like this isn't for endless imagination, it's to progress through a story. At some point, you got to realize if you could knock out everyone and still progress it would be silly.

I just play good until more gets added/fixed for evil option. I also plan to do solo playthrough, where good/evil choice doesn't matter much.

[UnholyDentist]

Origineel geplaatst door Prinny𖤐Wesker:

She even questions why you slaughtered the grove.

Yes, I also find that part controversial.

[Meow]

Origineel geplaatst door Argonaut:

Yeah and this is not how the mechanic works in tabletop or in common sense and is very poor worksmanship from both a game developer and a writer.

Agree, knock out works differently than one would logically expect and what the loading screen suggests...

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

It does work with some NPCs, but wonder what decides temporary or permanent knock out? Is it set by NPCs or just random, or maybe customary for Paladins only?

In my case, Minthara did wake up, and was alive with 1 HP, standing at the same spot as her original spot, but could not talk to her, or interact any way. The only thing I could do is to kill her. It seems like, she hasn't been coded for such outcome yet, but could be.

Besides, knock outs could be more than just a class tool.

It seems story decides it. If story tells you not to kill someone e.g. Minsc, game will give it Knock out temporary. Otherwise its always knocked out - dead.

EDIT: As I read somewhere on reddit if you knock out enemy with state "Enemy (Temporary)" it should give it "Knocked out (Temporary)". Haven't tested it yet myself tho. I try not to worry about knock outs because you will not get XP for a kill, while they are dead anyways.

[UnholyDentist]

Origineel geplaatst door Meow:

Origineel geplaatst door Argonaut:

Yeah and this is not how the mechanic works in tabletop or in common sense and is very poor worksmanship from both a game developer and a writer.

Agree, knock out works differently than one would logically expect and what the loading screen suggests...

Origineel geplaatst door UnholyDentist:

It does work with some NPCs, but wonder what decides temporary or permanent knock out? Is it set by NPCs or just random, or maybe customary for Paladins only?

In my case, Minthara did wake up, and was alive with 1 HP, standing at the same spot as her original spot, but could not talk to her, or interact any way. The only thing I could do is to kill her. It seems like, she hasn't been coded for such outcome yet, but could be.

Besides, knock outs could be more than just a class tool.

It seems story decides it. If story tells you not to kill someone e.g. Minsc, game will give it Knock out temporary. Otherwise its always knocked out - dead.

I think it's just not programmed for the criteria. So if you save the tieflings, then Minthara is labelled dead by the game, and stays there acting as a dead husk, that can only be killed.