THAT Ability Check in Act III

[Knight Hospitaller]

Yep, I'm talking about that DC 99. I mean, it is not only bad, but double bad.

First from a tabletop-wise perspective. If the DM allowed to roll, there is always a chance of nat 20 and that is (in the tabletop) an insta-win, regardless of DC. I don't think Larian would end the game there if the player got a nat 20... right?

Second, from a gameplay perspective, I burned spells, potions and all my inspiration points to try to get the previous, DC 30 check. Had I know it was mostly an "interactive cutscene", I would have not spent those.

Dont' get me wrong, 10/10 game, I'm in my second playthrough now. A game so great I can only nitpick what to complain about.

[Raelic]

Originally posted by Knight Hospitaller:

Yep, I'm talking about that DC 99. I mean, it is not only bad, but double bad.

First from a tabletop-wise perspective. If the DM allowed to roll, there is always a chance of nat 20 and that is (in the tabletop) an insta-win, regardless of DC. I don't think Larian would end the game there if the player got a nat 20... right?

Second, from a gameplay perspective, I burned spells, potions and all my inspiration points to try to get the previous, DC 30 check. Had I know it was mostly an "interactive cutscene", I would have not spent those.

Dont' get me wrong, 10/10 game, I'm in my second playthrough now. A game so great I can only nitpick what to complain about.

Natural 20 is not always instant win. It's instant succeed. The difference does matter.

In this game, if you succeed in that check with a natural 20, the Netherbrain starts with less HP. If you succeed on the previous checks it does the same thing as well cumulatively.

It's not auto-win. It's auto-succeed.

The animation is different too. The lines of power hit the brain and don't just veer off.

But, if it makes you feel any better, damaging the brain isn't the tough part of the fight. It basically matters, but very little. The big thing is that you felt the tension of the moment. And you posting your frustration here and burning all your inspiration... I bet you did feel the moment pretty well.

And that's good.

[Ironwu]

I suspect that if that is where the path has led, then you are not *supposed* to win the encounter. And even if you roll a natural 20 and win the DC, you would still not 'win' the encounter. Just a guess. But that is what I think a DC of 99 means.

[victorvnv]

Lol the point of that sequence is that you fail no matter what you do.

The end result is the same even if you roll crit success 4 times in a row.

Also at that stage you won’t need any inspiration points going forward.

There is like one last check left total which is the guards running and you could try persuade them to join you but that’s it.

It’s mostly for fun and forces you to lose no matter what you try, it’s by design like this .

The first time I did it I rolled crit 20 and passed it it really doesn’t matter

[Raelic]

Originally posted by victorvnv:

Lol the point of that sequence is that you fail no matter what you do.

The end result is the same even if you roll crit success 4 times in a row.

Also at that stage you won’t need any inspiration points going forward.

There is like one last check left total which is the guards running and you could try persuade them to join you but that’s it.

It’s mostly for fun and forces you to lose no matter what you try, it’s by design like this .

The first time I did it I rolled crit 20 and passed it it really doesn’t matter

None of this is true and you post pretty aggressively with great condescension. There's also some spots you'll still need inspiration for after it. Explore the keep area more before fighting the netherbrain.

I'm referring to the "LOL" at the beginning and how you post in topics where people are struggling.

[victorvnv]

Originally posted by Raelic:

Originally posted by victorvnv:

Lol the point of that sequence is that you fail no matter what you do.

The end result is the same even if you roll crit success 4 times in a row.

Also at that stage you won’t need any inspiration points going forward.

There is like one last check left total which is the guards running and you could try persuade them to join you but that’s it.

It’s mostly for fun and forces you to lose no matter what you try, it’s by design like this .

The first time I did it I rolled crit 20 and passed it it really doesn’t matter

None of this is true and you post pretty aggressively with great condescension. There's also some spots you'll still need inspiration for after it. Explore the keep area more before fighting the netherbrain.

I'm referring to the "LOL" at the beginning and how you post in topics where people are struggling.

Lol at this answer

[SpockEndil]

Doesn't matter. Even if you "win" the rolls, you don't accomplish anything meaningful.

[Mike Garrison]

Some advice I have seen for DMs emphasizes that if you don't want players to pass a skill check, just don't let them roll for it. Seems like a better solution than a DC99 roll.

[wagg40k]

Bad DMs design things that players have no way of winning.

[SpaceWombat]

nope and unfortunately even if you pass all the checks it has the exact same outcome as if you failed it right away. The player is supposed to fail that check which is lame because it's unjustified except for "plot"

[Raelic]

It's not the exact same outcome.

[wizard1200]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Some advice I have seen for DMs emphasizes that if you don't want players to pass a skill check, just don't let them roll for it. Seems like a better solution than a DC99 roll.

Exactly! The scene would be MUCH better if the different choices would not require any checks, similar to the scene in Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines: as soon as you are trying to refuse the orders of the prince he simply controls your mind and you can agree in three different ways.

[Revenant]

Originally posted by victorvnv:

Lol the point of that sequence is that you fail no matter what you do.

Yes, and if you had paid attention to the original post, you'd know that the whole point is that giving the player a roll when failure is guaranteed is bad game design.

[NegativeZero]

Originally posted by wagg40k:

Bad DMs design things that players have no way of winning.

Bad cognitive abilities if you think every thing has to be winnable.

[Valthejean]

This is why 5e made a mistake in having critical misses/hits on skills.

Sometimes, there is just some feats that are beyond your character's ability to preform. Other times, there are just some things that are so menial to them it's like breathing.

This specific example is precisely why they shouldn't exist. This is an incredibly difficult task you're performing. (Yes I know that if you crit succeed on it anyway it doesn't matter, that's beside the point.)

[Ashe]

They outright said that the three chosen together had it but as they depleted in number it became rougher, you're attempting to rein it back. Its foreshadowed hard that it's not going to work.

It's a storytelling device. What you do is an insurmountable task tantamount to a joke. There's no skill involved; it's pure luck.

And then afterwards you're met with the fact that it still lost you the encounter. There's a minor hp penalty to the final encounter but otherwise it shows the gravitas of the act of trying to dominate the brain as a non illithid. And pushes you to the need for an illithid ally.

In a regular tabletop game the DCs are behind the screen so its better to not waste time on unneccesary rolls. But the difference here is that players know the rolls they need so a skills difficulty is conveyed overtly and they can see visually how hard a roll is.

Same wirh HP. This isn't something you see in real life so it's not conveyed normally in games but here you see all the values you need.