Leveling hypothesis

[Mike Garrison]

Would it make for a better game if, for instance, you started Act 1 as Level 4, then when you moved to Act 2 got boosted to Level 8, and then started Act 3 at Level 12?

That is to say, rather than getting a constant trickle of exp and a steady stream of 1-level boosts, if they just designed each act for players of a set level and you played for the story without the hunt for exp?

[zacharyb]

While it'd be easier to balance it probably wouldn't be as interesting. I personally wouldn't want it, especially because you don't have to hunt for XP.

[Mike Garrison]

I think CRPG players are just so focused on leveling up all the time, that I wonder if there is a better way to make the games.

In some other genres you never "level up". For example, Agent 47 in Hitman is the same Agent 47 at the start of the game and the end of the game -- he never "levels up". And people like those games too.

[Ilja]

Hunting levels is part of fun in D20 games. This is true with DnD, Pathfinder and other similar games.

BG3 is actually quite generous with it's levels. Original Baldur's Gate only had 6 levels and getting each of them was a reason to celebrate. I wouldn't mind if BG3 had adopted same approach. There is something fun to be "1st level miracle" that gets downed by a punch from a fist. Each level feels precious, when you get them.

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

I think CRPG players are just so focused on leveling up all the time, that I wonder if there is a better way to make the games.

In some other genres you never "level up". For example, Agent 47 in Hitman is the same Agent 47 at the start of the game and the end of the game -- he never "levels up". And people like those games too.

In other genres it's not uncommon for you to unlock new/better equipment instead of levels. In RPG's there's usually always some kind of leveling system and it's part of fun of it. You start off weak/weaker and get stronger.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

Agent 47 in Hitman is the same Agent 47 at the start of the game and the end of the game -- he never "levels up". And people like those games too.

The player leveled up. It is a whole thesis on intrinsic experience and extrinsic experience, being able to grind and brute force vs use the player's wits to overcome overwheling challenges.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Yeah, that's called milestone leveling, and I prefer it over xp gain.

The trick is when to dole out the levels. I don't agree with the idea of 4-level jumps between acts, it needs to be more gradual 1 lvl jumps. And you also have the issue that basically level up triggers need to be built into the game in such a way as to make it hard to exploit them (by grabbing a level up trigger and then backtracking to trivialize content...although it kind of doesn't matter, since it's not like you're farming xp anyway...)

In any case, Larian decided against milestone leveling and went with xp farming. It is what it is, it's not the worst thing in the world, but I do wish they'd gone with milestone instead.

[zacharyb]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Yeah, that's called milestone leveling, and I prefer it over xp gain.

The trick is when to dole out the levels. I don't agree with the idea of 4-level jumps between acts, it needs to be more gradual 1 lvl jumps. And you also have the issue that basically level up triggers need to be built into the game in such a way as to make it hard to exploit them (by grabbing a level up trigger and then backtracking to trivialize content...although it kind of doesn't matter, since it's not like you're farming xp anyway...)

In any case, Larian decided against milestone leveling and went with xp farming. It is what it is, it's not the worst thing in the world, but I do wish they'd gone with milestone instead.

The game would probably have to be a lot more linear for Milestones to work and would probably require you to tie quests/areas to Milestones to prevent people from becoming OP.

[ARFett]

Nah, not really.

But the level cap of level 12 is lazy and not fullfilling.

If you go for a roll enjoying the plenty quests you are maxed in no time.

And that is frustrating.

To not get any more rewards for doing things other than...well, some shiny items.

But that is no feel of advancement.

Also in Baldurs Gate 2 Throne of Baal you actually felt like a mighty avatar.

Here?

You are just a guy as a feeling.

Even on level 12.

:-D

[Computer]

I don't think this would be such a good idea, though I imagine Act 1 would work better if you didn't start at level 1. D20 is just too random without proficiency modifiers and stats to level things out. One of the reasons I think BG2 was as good as it was is because it starts you off with a nice toolkit.

[Raelic]

Believe it or not... the game kind of does this. I did a playthrough where I skipped the underdark and hag and creche, Hide and Seek, exploring Act 2 fully, etc... and I was still like level 8 by Act 3. I still had level 12 somewhere before getting the third Netherstone and I skipped much of Rivington including the circus and the beach encounters.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by zacharyb:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Yeah, that's called milestone leveling, and I prefer it over xp gain.

The trick is when to dole out the levels. I don't agree with the idea of 4-level jumps between acts, it needs to be more gradual 1 lvl jumps. And you also have the issue that basically level up triggers need to be built into the game in such a way as to make it hard to exploit them (by grabbing a level up trigger and then backtracking to trivialize content...although it kind of doesn't matter, since it's not like you're farming xp anyway...)

In any case, Larian decided against milestone leveling and went with xp farming. It is what it is, it's not the worst thing in the world, but I do wish they'd gone with milestone instead.

The game would probably have to be a lot more linear for Milestones to work and would probably require you to tie quests/areas to Milestones to prevent people from becoming OP.

Underrail's system is an interesting mix of milestone levelling with exploration with combat.

XP comes from oddities. Some are ones you'll likely find during the plot, some are drops (but only give XP a set number of times so you can't grind) from enemies, some are just tucked away hidden places.

It's weird but IMO great.

[guard65]

I start the game at level 4. However I have the game difficulty cranked way past tactician. That way the game is much harder as you level up. I usually finish at level 15.

[Sevati]

Power curve in DnD 5e is very extreme from 13 to 16, and then again from 17 to 20. More attacks, more proficiency, more spells and more power buffs and damaging ones and lots of save or die type of mechanics start arising, which can be quite complicated and why some things even we do have a nerfed a bit.